Buck Up!

(From FOX NEWS) President Obama and Vice President Biden both used unusually tough language this week to describe their own supporters. In an interview with Rolling Stone released Tuesday, Obama accused many of being apathetic, self-defeating pessimists. “It is inexcusable for any Democrat or progressive right now to stand on the sidelines in this midterm election,” he said. “The idea that we’ve got a lack of enthusiasm in the Democratic base, that people are sitting on their hands complaining is just irresponsible.” Obama said progressives tend to see the glass “half-empty” and are applying that trademark bitterness toward the health care package because “it didn’t have every bell and whistle that we wanted” like a government-run nsurance option. But he urged the base to “wake up,” recognize the legislation he’s signed on everything from health care to financial regulation to student loans and consider the alternative — Republican leadership that is “to the right” of former President George W. Bush.


The interview was released after Biden used similar terms to account for the enthusiasm gap in the party. At a campaign stop for New Hampshire Democratic candidates Monday, he urged Democrats to “stop whining.” In an interview with MSNBC, Biden also traced voter “anger” in the Democratic base to disappointment over the scope of the health care package. “Because there was no public option, some of them are so angry they say we’re not going to participate. They should stop that,” he said. “Those who don’t get … everything they wanted, it’s time to just buck up here.”

So, what do you think…  is this effective? Is it wise? Will it serve the desired purpose, or be counter-productive?  Opinions among lefty commentators seem to be all over the place. Surprisingly, though, the rank and file seems fairly united. Today Ed Schulz asked his viewers on the daily phone-in poll, “Was Obama right when he told Democrats to “buck up?” I waited all through the program to hear the answer…(not easy for me, because I find Ed’s voice to be  like fingernails on a chalkboard.) I thought the breakdown from his far-left audience would be 50-50 at best, and more likely 70-30 against the President’s tough language.

The result, when it finally came… Yes…96%. No… 4%.

About filistro

Filistro is a Canadian writer and prairie dog who maintains burrows on both sides of the 49th parallel. Like all prairie dogs, she is keenly interested in politics and language. (Prairie dogs have been known to build organized towns the size of Maryland, and are the only furry mammal with a documented language.)
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166 Responses to Buck Up!

  1. Monotreme says:

    I feel the same about Ed Schultz.Count me in with the 96%.

  2. WA7th says:

    I don’t suppose RS will run a rebuttal interview of Statler N Waldorf, but somehow any buck up and stop whining messaging now seems incomplete without it.Darn, now I’ll have to go find and old one and post it. We all know his song wouldn’t have changed by anything said this week.

  3. ted says:

    Filistro, we now know the results of Biden’s and Obama’s comments…..the Dems have turned on Obama:Senate blocks recess appointments with deal between Dems, GOPBy Alexander Bolton – 09/29/10 10:59 PM ET Senate Democrats agreed Wednesday night to a Republican demand to block President Obama from making recess appointments while Congress is out of town campaigning for the midterm elections.Democratic leaders have agreed to schedule pro-forma sessions of the Senate every week over the next six weeks, a move that will prevent Obama from making emergency appointments, according to Senate sources briefed on the talks.read morehttp://thehill.com/homenews/senate/121775-senate-blocks-recess-appointments

  4. Alki says:

    I am with the 96% and I probably will be changing my registration back to independent. These Dems are weak willed, back stabbing weasels.

  5. WA7th says:

    Since we’re in sore need of a devil’s advocate in this thread, let’s review some of Statler N Waldorf’s list of broken Obama campaign promises.1)Pull out of Afghanistan2)Prosecute Bush/Cheney3)Single payer4)End the war on Drugs (!)5)Carbon tax6)Tear down the border fence7)Stop-loss gay soldiers8)Close GitmoOnly mentioning the whining about HCR is cherry picking from the whine list. There are plenty of reasons his base is less than enthusiastic. The real question in my mind is whether or not Obama would be in a better political position today had he done more to appease his base. I think he would be in worse shape. My suggestion for him in the next session is to start out on day one bashing the weak-willed back-stabbing Dems in Congress, and not let the Republicans get in a word edgewise in that regard. Oh, wait, I forgot he’s not John Wayne in an LBJ suit. Damn.

  6. WA7th says:

    PS: I swear I closed the italics.

  7. Alki says:

    @ WA 7th…..Why do we need a devil’s advocate on this thread? The complaints you’re citing are those that Dems have been making ad nauseum for over a year now. They sound like a bunch of bratty kids who feel entitled. Velma Hart last week was the latest in a long line. Now Obama has to work to make sure the poor woman doesn’t have to eat franks and beans…AGAIN. Let me stop and play the violin.

  8. shrinkers says:

    I want to make sure I understand. I didn’t watch Ed tonite … Was Obama right when he told Democrats to “buck up?” The result, when it finally came… Yes…96%. No… 4%.If I get this right, I agree. Stop the fricking whining.Obama has been the best progressive president in two generations. The best since FDR. Anyone who is complaining is a fool.

  9. Alki says:

    @ shrinkers………What do you think about the deal Dems made with Rs re. recess appointments?

  10. shrinkers says:

    @ shrinkers………What do you think about the deal Dems made with Rs re. recess appointments?I’m afraid I’m not aware of that. Been too busy with other things. Can you supply info?

  11. Number Seven says:

    Hey Obama, keep shitting on your base.Fuck you.Let the Public Cons take over the house, bfd. At least their ugliness will be out there for all to see.Just have the balls to use your Veto pen you fucking corporatist.Yep, if I vote for Obama, he will procecute the Bush Crime Family.. oh wait…Yep, If I vote for Obama, he will end NAFTA and CAFTA and say fuck you to china.. oh wait…Yep, If I vote for Obama, he will be an actual progressive and not beg the Public Cons to approve everything he does.. oh wait…Sorry folks, I can no longer hide my absolute anger at the go along, get along attitude of the Democants.Enough is enough.Be seeing you.Forgive me if I expect a left wing party to act like left wingers.

  12. Bart DePalma says:

    The S&M theory of campaigning?What happened to hope and change?

  13. shortchain says:

    I’m with shrinkers — Obama is the best progressive president in two generations … which is “damning with faint praise”.I’ve yet to see a minimally coherent explanation of how staying home and ceding the playing field to the corporations and their mindless minions on the right will, you know, make things better.Bart, hope springs eternal, and change is the only true constant in the universe. The question is whether it is change for the better, or for the worse — and what you can do about it.

  14. filistro says:

    This reaction really puzzles me. It’s like people have no concept of the process whatever… as if it’s some Ultimate Fighter contest where if politicians just fight hard enough and hit brutally neough, they can somehow “win.”It’s not.It’s more like a divorce court where both sides have their own goals and their own interests to protect, and they each try hard to get as much as they can.So… you pick the very best lawyer you can find, and tell him you want full custody of the kids plus the house, the summer cottage, both vehicles and two third of the retirement savings, plus the collection of china cats and the riding lawn mower.He comes back after a two-year battle and he’s won you the house but not the cottage. You get custody and child support but have to yield vistation on weekends, summers and mjor holidays. You get the Lexus SUV but not the Mustang, you get only one-half of the retirement account, you get the riding mower, you lose the china cats. Everything is pending your approval. So you rip up the compromise offer and go around kicking the walls and muttering “Goddam useless lawyer. This isn’t what I wanted. I’m gonna fire his ass. I just won’t have a lawyer anymore. What good is he?” I have two questions. 1.) What good is going to be accomplished by firing your lawyer at this point?2.) WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?

  15. Bart DePalma says:

    Actually folks, if you look at the crosstabs of most enthusiasm polling, the left base has been engaged. The problem is that they only make up maybe 20% of the voters. The Dem enthusiasm problems are with self identified moderates, African Americans and young folks.Speaking of young folks, McDonalds announced today it will stop providing health insurance for its workers if the Obamacare bureaucracy goes ahead with its plans to outlay high deductible insurance that McD’s employees can afford. You have to love socialism.

  16. Monotreme says:

    @Filistro:You might recall the magic pony delegates that Hilary Clinton was going to use to win the Democratic nomination.A lot of people still believe in magic ponies.

  17. shrinkers says:

    @Alki@ shrinkers………What do you think about the deal Dems made with Rs re. recess appointments?Well, it sucks. Big time.The alternative is worse.Anyone who doesn’t think the Republicans are screwing the country through misuse of Senate rules is a fucking idiot.Anyone who believes that the Democrats actually have control of the Senate is also an idiot.The Senate rules have to change. Too much power can be unilaterally seized by an obstructionist senator. McConnell is an absolute asshole.I wonder if that was too subtle?

  18. Bart DePalma says:

    Gallup giving a preview of its likely voter results:”Our latest measure for the week of Sept. 20-26 shows Republicans with a 20-percentage-point lead over Democrats in terms of the percentage of voters who are “very” enthusiastic about voting. Additionally, preliminary modeling of the likely electorate using Gallup’s traditional likely voter questions (more on this next week) suggests that if current patterns persist, Republicans could have a double-digit lead in the national House vote on Election Day, which would translate into Republicans gaining well above the number of seats necessary to control the House.”http://2010central.gallup.com/2010/09/story-of-election-disproportionate.html

  19. filistro says:

    @Treme: A lot of people still believe in magic ponies.Ain’t that the truth?* A lot of people believe hating really really hard is enough to win.* A lot of people believe it’s wrong to compromise with people you loathe to achieve mutual gain.* A lot of people believe victory must be complete and unequivocal in order to be meaningful.*I* believe these are all idealistic misconceptions that can be cured simply by living long enough.

  20. filistro says:

    Sept. 29, Bart. That was the day it began to turn. Wait for next week’s numbers.

  21. shortchain says:

    filistro,Forget the divorce — I want an annulment! I’m willing to sign a paper saying the marriage was never consummated, and people are going to take one look at Paladino and believe me without question.I do have to quibble with your analogy, however, not that I have a better one to propose. The problem with it is that, in it, neither side gets what it wants if there’s no settlement. In the current situation, if the result is a complete breakdown of the governing institutions (Senate and House deadlocked, Executive branch distrusted and under constant threat of investigation, courts understaffed to the point of dysfunction) — the right will be having to go to the emergency room to treat a (metaphorical) nonstop erection.

  22. WA7th says:

    Doesn’t changing Senate rules only require a simple majority at the start of a new session once? Sad thing is they might not get another opportunity to do that. Sadder still that there doesn’t seem to be much clamoring for that from within the Senate. Mostly I hear just nebulous bs that the Republicans next session won’t be such a monolithic voting block because so much attention won’t be on one person as vote #60.

  23. shrinkers says:

    @WA7th You’re right, a majority vote at the beginning of each 2-year session of the Senate is enough to change the rules.And Dems are too wimpy to do it, even if they retain a theoretical majority.And if the R’s do win a majority, the Dems are too wimpy to engage in the sort of scorched-earth nonsense that the R’s have been doing for two years.After all, when the R’s only had 50 seats + Darth Cheney, they still were able to steamroll whatever they wanted into law.It’s the difference between a party that wants to govern, and one that wants to rule. Guess which is which.

  24. parksie555 says:

    Hey Filly – Did you take a gander at the Ras numbers for Obama approval the last two days?-6 and -10Whoops. So much for that big inflection point you were hawking three days ago.

  25. parksie555 says:

    On the other hand my personal approval of Obama has gone up markedly since he basically told whiny Koskid liberals to STFU and be happy with what they got. I think that’s the smartest thing he has said since being elected.

  26. shortchain says:

    parksie,Yeah, it’s an absolutely brilliant move to say something that thrills only the people who will never support you anyway, and pisses off the people who might.I stand in awe of his vaunted political skill.

  27. parksie555 says:

    Shortchain – c’mon, be realistic. It’s a smart play. Obama needs to get the middle back. Not the nutjobs on the left. Where are they going to go? As much as I think he is in over his head as President, he is still a very smart guy.

  28. Realist says:

    @filistro*I* believe these are all idealistic misconceptions that can be cured simply by living long enough.If they only had longer lives…….

  29. mclever says:

    Stick and Carrot.The Stick: The “buck up” commentary needed to be made by someone with enough clout for it to get noticed. Lefties who are upset that they didn’t get every wish fulfilled the instant Obama was sworn in needed a reality check and a reminder that staying home (or even voting against the Dems) would basically hand the keys to people who have the opposite goals. Handing Tea Party candidates power would be like putting the car in reverse and stomping on the gas. The Carrot: The Wisconsin speech recalled some of the uplifting themes of 2008 with references to promises kept and goals met plus work that still needs to be done. I expect to hear more of this “look at all we’ve accomplished” rhetoric and general rah-rahs as the election nears.Both parts form a coherent message: Yes, we know some of you are upset that we haven’t done more, but look at all that we have accomplished. Do you really want to undo all of that and go backwards?

  30. filistro says:

    I find the petulant anger of the Dem base so depressing. The thought that they might throw away this historic chance to accomplish a whole lot just because they didn’t get everything… it makes me wonder if any of this effort is even worthwhile. Why bother?Well.. because a lot of people still believe in what they’re working for, I guess. But it still rankles.The only comfort is the idea of how furious the REPUBLICAN base will be if they gain power and don’t immediately get Roe v Wade overturned, an instant repeal of hate crime and civil rights laws, legalization of concealed carry in schools and a ban on all mosques in America.But since I think they’re only going to win about 30 seats, I won’t even get to enjoy THAT little spectacle.On the bright side, it’s autumn on the prairie, my foot has healed enough to bear weight for limited periods, and I’m going sort-of-hiking this weekend.But I’m still bummed 😦

  31. dr_funguy says:

    @ WA7th Statler N Waldorf’s list of broken Obama campaign promises.I don’t know who Statler Waldorf is, but what is he smoking?Obama never promised to prosecute Bush and Cheney (much as they deserve it) or end the war on drugs.

  32. Alki says:

    @ Parksie……As much as I think he is in over his head as President Oh please……in 19 mos, Obama has accomplished more than Bush destroyed in 9 mos.

  33. Alki says:

    @ Shrinkers……sorry but once again, I closed the italics in my post…….and yet, the post doesn’t look that way.

  34. Realist says:

    Oh, speaking of mosques in the US, GROG never gave an answer to my question, asking him how the government can prevent a mosque from being built in lower Manhattan without violating the First Amendment. Do you think he forgot?

  35. mclever says:

    @dr_funguyAnd Obama never promised to pull troops OUT of Afghanistan, either.Statler was a regular at the original 538 site. Vocal and articulate, if a bit unrealistic in his expectations.

  36. filistro says:

    @ Realist.. GROG never gave an answer to my question, asking him how the government can prevent a mosque from being built in lower Manhattan without violating the First Amendment.It seems they all admit there’s nothing “illegal” about building the Muslim community center, it should just be forbidden because it’s in “bad taste.” The wingers yearn to be the Fashion Police, out there busting people for errors in taste. “Vinyl placemats! Thirty days plus fine, ma’am!”… and.. “Brown shoes with your black suit? I’m not sure bail can be granted…” But of course they are all dedicated “libertarians” who believe in (as Bart has memorably said) “getting the government out of my business.”

  37. filistro says:

    Statler was most exercised over DADT and other gay issues. I do wonder how much of the current outrage would have been muted if, say… DADT had been successfully repealed. I also wonder how much better gays think they will fare under a GOP majority if they all stay home this election.I can certainly understand the impatience… equality and basic fairness has been a long time coming. Way, WAY too long. I just don’t understand the lack of pragmatism when success is almost at hand.Somebody better cheer me up quick, or I’m going to go walkabout and not come back.

  38. shortchain says:

    parksie,So those like yourself are now going to vote Democratic now that Obama has dissed the left?Let me be clear: I’m not dispirited. I never thought Obama was anything but what he is. Given the choices available, he was far and away the best choice. In hind sight he was still the best.He’s a reasonably competent, reasonably savvy politician. He’s still capable of making mistakes. Maybe, based on focus group studies that we are not privy to, he’s pursuing a masterful strategy — but it doesn’t look like it to me.

  39. Bart DePalma says:

    Enthusiasm chasm in practice…”A higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats in Ohio’s three largest counties have asked for absentee ballots this year — an ominous sign for the party hoping to repel GOP forces on Election Day. Roughly three out of 10 registered Ohio voters live in Franklin, Hamilton and Cuyahoga counties.With early voting under way this week, Republican voters in Franklin and Hamilton counties have requested more absentee ballots than their Democratic counterparts — hard evidence of a much different environment than 2008 when an avalanche of Democratic absentee ballot requests dwarfed Republican requests in both counties.In Cuyahoga County, registered Democrats have requested 60,960 absentee ballots compared with 28,888 for voters registered as Republicans, according to the county Board of Elections figures through Tuesday.Good news for Democrats?Consider that Democrats hold an almost four-to-one edge in voter registration in Cuyahoga County, according to Ohio Secretary of State office statistics. Once that ratio is taken into account, the numbers show 33 percent of the Republicans in Cuyahoga County have requested an absentee ballot thus far compared with 18 percent of Democrats.”http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/09/republicans_have_requested_mor.html

  40. Alki says:

    “In Cuyahoga County, registered Democrats have requested 60,960 absentee ballots compared with 28,888 for voters registered as Republicans, according to the county Board of Elections figures through Tuesday.”*************************************Uh, Bart………Elections 101: Rs always tend to vote more absentee ballot than Dems for a whole host of reasons. Thus, that statistic is meaningless. So sorry.

  41. shrinkers says:

    @filistroIt seems they all admit there’s nothing “illegal” about building the Muslim community center, it should just be forbidden because it’s in “bad taste.” Something no winger has yet been able to explain to me — and I wish one would, because this statement is so often accepted without explanation.Why would it be in “bad taste”?

  42. Bart DePalma says:

    Alki wrote: “Uh, Bart………Elections 101: Rs always tend to vote more absentee ballot than Dems for a whole host of reasons. Thus, that statistic is meaningless. So sorry.”Reply to thisPerhaps you missed the money passage from my post:”With early voting under way this week, Republican voters in Franklin and Hamilton counties have requested more absentee ballots than their Democratic counterparts — hard evidence of a much different environment than 2008 when an avalanche of Democratic absentee ballot requests dwarfed Republican requests in both counties.”

  43. Alki says:

    “With early voting under way this week, Republican voters in Franklin and Hamilton counties have requested more absentee ballots than their Democratic counterparts — hard evidence of a much different environment than 2008 when an avalanche of Democratic absentee ballot requests dwarfed Republican requests in both counties.””*************************************All that means is that Dems aren’t as enthusiastic as they were in 2008. That doesn’t come as a surprise. Cleveland is half black. Blacks tend not to get all fired up at midterms. Doesn’t mean they won’t vote. Again, very sorry, Bart.

  44. Bart DePalma says:

    Alki wrote:”Blacks tend not to get all fired up at midterms. Doesn’t mean they won’t vote.”The fact that Dems are not fired up to vote does not mean they will not vote?Ummm, sure.

  45. Alki says:

    “The fact that Dems are not fired up to vote does not mean they will not vote?”****************************************That’s right. I know you consider it critical to your meme that R Teapers will sweep the midterms. However, that theory is not playing out quite as accurately as I think you might have hoped. Obama’s turnout among young adults in Madison was significantly bigger than his Madison turnout during his campaign. Yet, young adults are not supposed to be interested in midterms. The Rs had CA wrapped up…..supposedly the bluest state in the Union was turned off by the Dems and Obama……I think unethusiastic was the word being thrown around. Funny thing…..Dems are coming home in CA and the polls are turning in their favor. That’s after Whitman has spent $120 million……the GDP for a small country….on her campaign. And you know what they say, Bart, all trends start in CA. 😉

  46. filistro says:

    @Alki… Bart’s brain is a busy little organism but can only grasp one concept at a time. Thus far he seems utterly unable to internalize and process what shrinkers has patiently explained to him at least half a dozen times:”It doesn’t matter HOW ‘enthused’ you are. You still only get ONE VOTE.”

  47. Alki says:

    Oh no, Bart, I am afraid there’s more bad news:”And now a look at the enthusiasm gap. Republicans have been extremely excited about voting in this election all the way since the summer of 2009. GOP voters really can’t get any more enthused about voting this year than they already are. Democrats have been significantly lagging on this front for most of the cycle but there are indications it’s getting better. For instance our July national poll found 51% of Democrats ‘very excited’ about voting this fall. In September that figure had increased to 59%.”http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-things-could-get-better-for-dems.html

  48. Bart DePalma says:

    Alki:27,000 college kids showing up at campus rally to see the President speak hardly translates into enthusiasm to vote among the millions between 18-29 who keep telling every pollster they are not enthusiastic about voting.Why?While these college kids are currently riding out the recession, unemployment in the 16 to 24 cohort is far higher than than the national average. You can thank a minimum wage hike in the middle of a recession as well as the uncertainty of the government imposed cost of labor. Why hire an unskilled person at an above market minimum wage when you have to train her and soon will have to buy her health insurance when you are barely making your current payroll during a recession?Kids, how is that hopey changey thing working out for you? You better get out and vote or Obama won’t be able to provide you more of the same!

  49. Alki says:

    Oh Bart…….those college kids are not Teapers….they’re smart. They know who got the economy in the mess that its in. They know which guys favor the rich. They know the ones who fought making health care possible for the disadvantaged. They know what’s at stake. That’s why they came out to see the president on a nice day in Sept when they could have been partying. 27000 strong….it was a beautiful sight. ;-)Rs have underestimated Obama from the getgo. Big mistake! A very big mistake!

  50. Alki says:

    Oh Bart…….are you going to listen to Allred’s press conference when she provides the evidence that Whitman hired an illegal in 2003? Just askin’.

  51. GROG says:

    @Alki and Fili,Are you guys suggesting that voter enthusiasm is meaningless to the outcome of an election?Do you know of any past elections where there was no correlation between enthusiasm and voter turnout?

  52. shrinkers says:

    GROG asked,Do you know of any past elections where there was no correlation between enthusiasm and voter turnout?The question is — can anyone demonstrate that there ever has been such a connection?

  53. Gainsbourg says:

    This is a bit off topic.This morning I open up my Miami Herald and I read that Karl Rove’s super PAC has given Marco Rubio a shed load of money. What do the resident Teabaggers feel about Rubio’s involvement with the Bushs and Karl Rove? Do they still think he’s a maverick independent or an establishment R out to play them for fools?

  54. shrinkers says:

    You can thank a minimum wage hike in the middle of a recession as well as the uncertainty of the government imposed cost of labor.Bart, A) Please provide some empirical evidence to prove raising the minimum wage has a negative effect on employment, particularly long-term.B) Also, please prove that there is any “uncertainty” in the cost of labor, and that this is currently having a negative effect on hiring. Verifiable empirical evidence only.C) If you can prove B, then be aware that the cause of any “uncertainty” must be Republican obstructionism, since they have been preventing the very decisions from being made that would eliminate this “uncertainty.” So if you do prove B, then offer an apology for the damage your party has caused America,

  55. Alki says:

    @ Grog……of course, voter enthusiasm is important. What I am pointing out is that Dem enthusiasm is improving and the polls are showing it. The Dems are late to the game because they are the party in power and don’t feel the urgency that the Rs feel. Does that mean I think the Dems will do great this year? Not at all. I just don’t think it will be as dire as Bart seems to expect.

  56. Alki says:

    @ Filistro”It doesn’t matter HOW ‘enthused’ you are. You still only get ONE VOTE.”******************************And what Bart also doesn’t understand is that even if you are not enthused, you still will vote because you see it as your civic responsibility.

  57. GROG says:

    From a historical standpoint, voter enthusiasm does seem to matter.In 1994 Republicans had a 10 point advantage over Democrats.In 2006 Democrats had a 10 point advantage over Republicans.We all know what happened in those midterms. As of Gallups last enthusiasm poll, R’s have a 15% lead over D’s.http://www.gallup.com/poll/140819/republicans-midterm-voting-enthusiasm-tops-prior-years.aspx

  58. shortchain says:

    Amen, Alki!Sure, voter enthusiasm has some effect on the result, but there’s precious little actual evidence that it’s a causal one. The only evidence I’ve seen for even correlation is in the 2008 presidential election, and I would guess that almost everybody would agree that there was something special about that.As for mechanisms by which voter enthusiasm would affect an election, it would seem to me that, if it’s a rainy day, or the polls are crowded, or you don’t feel well, then a lack of enthusiasm would affect whether you vote. If a large swath of the electorate is going to skip on the basis of something like that, ita) hardly seems like something we should celebrate andb) would require a crystal ball to predict the weather and general health of the populace this far in advance.The polls won’t be that crowded in most places. They never are in off-elections.One item of interest here. As a result of running an ISP long ago, I still get email because some deadbeats use those addresses to sign up for things. I get email from, among other groups, the local teabagger organization. They’ve been pushing their mailing list to vote early via absentee ballot.Could this be just another example of an attempt to intimidate the opposition?

  59. shrinkers says:

    In 1994 Republicans had a 10 point advantage over Democrats.In 2006 Democrats had a 10 point advantage over Republicans.We all know what happened in those midterms. But see, you have to show that the results of these elections were driven by enthusiasm, and not by, say, public opinion. That is, was 94 good for the R’s because the R’s were enthusiastic? Or was it because public opinion was simply in their favor? (Same, but reversed, for the ’06 election.) How much did the LV polls differ from the RV polls? Were the LV polls based more on demographics, or more on “enthusiasm”? Were the results of the elections decided more by demographics? Did the specific demographic cohorts who were more “enthusiastic” also show better turnout? Or were these elections decided by surprising turnout among cohorts who actually did not show particularly high enthusiasm?You have indicated a possible correlation in those two elections between election results (not turnout) and enthusiasm. But you have not indicated any actual causation.Disclosure: pollsters were saying, as recently as a year ago, that there has never actually been any connection demonstrated between “enthusiasm” and turnout. So if you do manage to prove this, you’ll probably make history! So I honestly wish you the best of luck in your attempt.

  60. Mainer says:

    I’m not so sure there is any deep motive behind GOTV moves involving Teaper early or absenteee voting beyond concern that some of that vaunted enthusiasm may be wanning and best to get the votes in the bank now before maybe the Dems make a last minute surge and the appearance is that the teaper revolution may have fizzled. It might also mean that there are some less than die hard teapers in the clan that could be turned by last minute things that happen in elections so better to make sure the votes are in and minds locked down.Hey it is politics and it is just political work going on. Both sides do it and at some level it is just good nuts and bolts politics. I think I will go the absentee rotue as well when I get off the road this week. Just not sure I will be home to vote and I would rather not miss my first election…..hard to be in ones dotage and become an electoral scoflaw.I asked the other day a couple of questions and I am not sure if they got posted or erased but I never saw a reply and now can not even find the questions so here goes again:1, As some of what I think are more out there right wing candidates seem to have disapeared into the woodwork lately will their attempt to go to election on cruise control help or hurt them Will ducking the electorate as a whole mean they will have to have that enthusiasm thing make up for not pulling in any broader audience? Can that work in a general?2, Groog and Bart, have either of you ever voted for a Democrat….ever? I have voted for Republicans, actually will vote for at least two again this year locally but have either of you gone the other way? And as of this moment will almost certainly go Independent for govenor….yet again.Elliot Cuttler for Gov 20103, I keep hearing that if the Senate gets close that Nelson and Lieberman will jump ship and become Republicans…why is it I can find no information out there that actually looks at the probability of this other than the wanner wishers?

  61. Bart DePalma says:

    Mainer wrote: “Groog and Bart, have either of you ever voted for a Democrat….ever? I have voted for Republicans, actually will vote for at least two again this year locally but have either of you gone the other way?”I go libertarian when I get disgusted with the GOP choice. I have never seen a libertarian conservative run as a Dem and doubt I ever will in my lifetime.

  62. Bart DePalma says:

    Mainer:There is no way in hell liberal Joe Lieberman becomes a Republican. His only real common ground with the GOP is on foreign policy. Joe will have absolutely no domestic common ground with the Tea Party cohort of the GOP coming to a Congress near you.

  63. filistro says:

    @GROG… Are you guys suggesting that voter enthusiasm is meaningless to the outcome of an election?I don’t believe it’s as meaningful as you guys think it is, and here’s why… like many things in life, it’s a matter of motivation. First, a couple of questions:1.)Why do people vote?2.)Who is more likely to vote even though not all that enthused?I think Republicans vote primarily out of self-interest. They want things for themselves, like lower taxes and special social-control issues that matter to them personally. They’re only enthused when there’s something in it for them.Dems vote for others, and for the country as a whole. 90% of them are not gay, but the welfare of the gay community matters to them anyhow. Many of them have good health care but it matters to them that others don’t. Many have enough to eat, but they care that others are hungry.A Rep sees his vote as way to benefit himself. That’s exciting. He gets enthused and goes to vote. The Dem sees his vote as way to help others. Not all that exciting… more of a duty if you care about your fellow man. So even if he’s not enthused, he will still vote. I’m NEVER all that excited about sorting the recyclables… but I always do it anyhow.

  64. filistro says:

    @Gainsbourg What do the resident Teabaggers feel about Rubio’s involvement with the Bushs and Karl Rove?That’s an excellent question. However, you will never, NEVER get an answer. Our resident teabaggers do not answer awkward or uncomfortable questions, they just serenely ignore them and sail on though their heaving sea of rhetoric.Being a teabagger means never having to say you’re silly.

  65. Bart DePalma says:

    “What do the resident Teabaggers feel about Rubio’s involvement with the Bushs and Karl Rove?”So what? Do Rove and Bush have coodies?

  66. Mainer says:

    Thanks Bart, that helps. Kind of mirrors some friends. I couldn’t make the Lieberman thing fit either.We vote for who we vote. I don’t care that you don’t vote Dem but I do care that you are chasing a Libertarian ideal in a far less than Libertarian Social Conservative cesspool. That I just couldn’t bridge. But again thanks for the come back. Hey Bart and I can be polite when we want to hell we even thank each other for our service…..still think he is wrong on most things but we earned the right to our free speech.

  67. shortchain says:

    filistro,You say “Republicans vote primarily out of self-interest.”Not in my experience. The wealthy ones do, but that’s a minority. The rest vote GOP on the basis of wedge issues or due to an uncontrollable mindless reflex which is too powerful for their rationality, weakened by years of slurping up the blather at various right-wing media outlets rather than thinking, to overcome.

  68. GROG says:

    I vote Republican because it’s the best chance to prevent this country from being destroyed by the big government, entitlement, welfare state that has been marching forward for the past 80 years. For some reason, I still think Republicans someday will stand up against it.

  69. GROG says:

    filistro said:Dems vote for others, and for the country as a whole. 90% of them are not gay, but the welfare of the gay community matters to them anyhow. Many of them have good health care but it matters to them that others don’t. Many have enough to eat, but they care that others are hungry.A Rep sees his vote as way to benefit himself. That’s exciting. He gets enthused and goes to vote. The Dem sees his vote as way to help others. Not all that exciting… more of a duty if you care about your fellow man. So even if he’s not enthused, he will still vote. Beautifuly said and I agree with that 100%. But here’s the thing. You’re describing only about half of Democrats. The other half are “takers” who are only concerned about what they think they’re entitled to from the government and making sure the “makers” keep paying for their entitlement. I genuinely believe the commenters on this blog are what fili described so well above, but your party survives because of the “takers” becuase their vote counts as much as yours does.

  70. Alki says:

    @ Grog…..I get a kick out of those people who keep calling for small gov’t. After all, it seems they want to go back to a time of the 13 colonies when the US was primarily a farm and hunting nation. They put the R in reactionary.The truth is we are country of over 300 million people filling in nearly 4 million square feet of land. We are the world’s only super power with the largest military. We spend more on the defense than the rest of the world combined. We have many different people with varying needs.The truth is the American conservative’s perennial dream of small gov’t is the equivalent of a drifter dreaming of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Its a big waste of time and it ain’t going to happen.Worse…….the American conservative’s fantasy keeps this country from progressing and maximizing its assets. Instead, we waste serious energy and time debating health care when most every other country in the world is well past the issue. So please, get more constructive in the discussion. TIA.

  71. filistro says:

    @GROG… You’re describing only about half of DemocratsYour response is why I like you, GROG. You’re a nice, decent guy. And to be fair, my description doesn’t apply to all Republicans, either. (That’s the big problem with all generalizations… those damn exceptions :-)I should have pointed out another reason the “enthusiasm gap” is less significant this cycle… it’s because it’s not really enthusiasm at all… it’s ANGER. The GOP wants to vote not because they’re all that excited about their candidates, but because they’re just MAD AS HELL over all kinds of nebulous things related to “losing their country” which is really just GOP-speak for roiling, nameless fear.. of change and the Other.That’s a tough emotion to sustain for the duaration, because it just gets harder and harder to whip up fear. After you watch enough of those awful movies, even Freddy Kruger looks less terrifying than just kind of silly. (Yeah, yeah, chainsaw, whatever…) i think the GOP has pretty much reached that point. On the other hand, the sturdy, generally unwavering Dem desire to be a Good Person, help others and dutifully move the country forward is very durable emotion, and difficult to dampen.In case you don’t know (well, how would you? 🙂 … that’s how Dem campaign workers motivate GOTV efforts. You don’t tell people how they’ll personally benefit from voting. You tell them it’s “the right thing to do” and they invariably say, “Oh, all right then…”

  72. dr_funguy says:

    GrogYou seem to have conveniently forgotten that the gov. grew more under recent Republican adminstrations (including Reagan) than under Dems.I am particularly amazed that “conservatives” can say this sort of thing following the Bush II adminstrations shredding of the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments…With what evidence can you support your reasoning?

  73. GROG says:

    Alki,Why do you strive to be like other countries? The idea of a small central government is the reason this is the greatest country in the history of the world. European style, big gov’t socialism is what has been strangling Europe for the past 100 years. Why do Democrats want to be like Europe?

  74. GROG says:

    @funguy,That’s why I said:”For some reason, I still think Republicans someday will stand up against it.”And that’s why the tea party is so appealing to us right now.

  75. GROG says:

    @Alki,This country was founded upon principles of limited central government and its the reason we have become the greatest, most powerful, most benevolent nation in history. We’re the envy of the world. No one is immigrating to France. Why do you want to abandon that so you can be like the rest of the world?

  76. shortchain says:

    As I mentioned above, I’ve been put on the mailing list for lots of things. As a result, I got, recently, an email from Eric Cantor (R-Virginia), in which he asked for people to make suggestions so “we can work together over the next 35 days to take America back.”Eric Cantor, from wealthy parents, educated in private school, then GWU, William and Mary Law School, then a master’s degree from Columbia (in real estate). Been in government since he was was 28 years old.Yup, those who vote for people like him must share his feeling of having lost control of the country.

  77. GROG says:

    Thanks fili. You and I want the same thing for people, we just have differences of opinion on how to do it.

  78. Jean says:

    A formidible list of accomplishments in 18 month, despite the total obstruction by Republicans:http://b4bmorenews.blogspot.com/2010/09/new-244-accomplishments-of-president.htmlAny wingers care to post GWBs accomplishments?

  79. Bart DePalma says:

    It matters not whether Cantor is a career politician or if Rubio has cordial relations with the Bushies or if O’Donnell is a witch.The only thing that matters is how they vote in Congress.If they do not do what we hire them to do this election, they can also be fired.

  80. filistro says:

    @GROG..we just have differences of opinion on how to do itProbably not as many as you think. I’m a big believer in fiscal conservatism, rewarding initiative and encouraging self-sufficiency.However, I am also firmly in favor of a social safety net. The young mother with two little kids whose husband runs out on her, leaving her just a couple hundred dollars away from being homeless and on the street with her kids… that little family breaks my heart. I want to live in a country where she can get help and not have to beg for it… or sleep in an alley with her kids. I want that even if it means I have to pay a lot more taxes (and I pay a whole lot of taxes already.)And where I fully part company with the GOP is on two vitally important areas… legislating “social issues” and pushing religion into politics.

  81. Bart DePalma says:

    Fili:On the same day Ras released it’s latest KY poll with Rand +11, the Dems pulled their KY ad buys and withdrew them to CN and WV. KY joins dozens of House seats and a handful of Senate seats the Dems have written off.http://www.nationalreview.com/battle10/248425/paul-11-dems-giving-ky-andrew-stiles

  82. Jean says:

    fili,re: And where I fully part company with the GOP is on two vitally important areas… legislating “social issues” and pushing religion into politics.Exactly! And you’d think these so-called libertarians would be on board with this as well. However, they seem to conveniently overlook social issues (see O’Donnell, Christine) in the interest of hoping to luck upon someone dim enough to be willing to dance to their tune.

  83. GROG says:

    I want to live in a country where she can get help and not have to beg for it… or sleep in an alley with her kids. I want that even if it means I have to pay a lot more taxes (and I pay a whole lot of taxes already.)I agree, but you must admit, we’ve gone from your description to creating generations of Americans who think they’re entitled to whatever government welfare they can get their hands on, regardless of whether or not they need it.It’s no longer a social safety net. It’s a welfare state.

  84. Jean says:

    Bart,re: If they do not do what we hire them to do this election, they can also be fired.The teapers “hired” Scott Brown. How’s that working for you?

  85. Jean says:

    GROG,re: I agree, but you must admit, we’ve gone from your description to creating generations of Americans who think they’re entitled to whatever government welfare they can get their hands on.Actually we can also look at big business and large corporations the same way – thinking they’re entitled to whatever government welfare they can get their hands on.

  86. shortchain says:

    Bart,Are you really going to spend the next month breathlessly telling us every time the DSCC makes a minor reallocation of its media buys?Ever hear of “The Boy Who Cried Wolf”?Also, it is another symptom of your delusions that you imagine that a pampered child of privilege like Eric Cantor shares any desire beyond using you like toilet paper. Once he’s majority whip, he’ll springboard that into the Senate or perhaps the governorship, or just spend a few terms working with industry, and then retire to a lucrative position, like Billy Tauzin.

  87. Bart DePalma says:

    Jean:If Brown does not maintain party discipline in the coming battles, he can be fired too. The GOP would be wise to allow the House to be the radicals proposing more than the GOP thinks it can get and then allow the Senate GOP and shell shocked Dems (including Obama) looking at their 2012 elections to force the House to “compromise” where the GOP wanted to be in the first place. This should give the Maine sisters, Brown and any othe blue state GOP pickups cover back home.

  88. Bart DePalma says:

    Yeah, the Dem midi buy shifts ever backward into what are supposed to be safe states and districts are nothing to worry about.All aboard for the Alamo!

  89. filistro says:

    Bart, you really don’t know how this game is played, do you?Nobody ever expected Conway to win (it’s KENTUCKY, remember?) The fact that he has made this a contest at all just shows how much damage the Tea Party has sustained as a result of unwisely letting its candidates actually talk to the press (or speak in public at all.) Rand Paul’s usefulness lies in using his craziness to help Dem candidates in other states.It’s not about individual candidates or races, Bart. It’s about BRANDING. If the Tea Party can be branded as crazy, dangerous extremists, then the GOP (which is now indivisibly welded with the Tea Party) can be taken down. Don’t you see how carefully and skilfully this is being done? Are you really that blind?

  90. shortchain says:

    Whatever gave you the idea we’re not worried?The prospect of the GOP regaining control of Congress fills me with a sense of dread. An incoming Congressional class with people like Angle, O’Donnell, or Buck, and run by Speaker Boehner, isn’t something any sane person can contemplate with equanimity.

  91. GROG says:

    Jean said:Actually we can also look at big business and large corporations the same way – thinking they’re entitled to whatever government welfare they can get their hands on.When Japan lowers their corporate tax rate early next year, the U.S. will have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. What corporate welfare are you talking about?

  92. Gainsbourg says:

    Karl apparently knows something you don’t. He has been advicing Rubio to ditch the teabaggers or he won’t get elected. How’s that for coodies (sic)?

  93. filistro says:

    I like Gainsbourg… 🙂

  94. Monotreme says:

    GROG wrote:We’re the envy of the world. No one is immigrating to France. Which is an exceptionally silly statement that is easily refuted.Take-home message: about 8% of the population of France consists of immigrants.That’s about the same percentage of legal immigrants as the US has. Illegal immigrants, of course, are another matter.The existence of a long, permeable land border with an exceptionally poor nation has a lot more to do with that than any Shining Beacon of Light on the Hill that we represent, but keep on telling yourself how special the United States is, based on a false premise.

  95. Monotreme says:

    It’s “cooties”, and Karl Rove has ’em. Luckily, I was given a Cootie Shot in fifth grade (an X marked “PAC”) and it’s still holding, so I’m immune to his particular brand of Turdblossom bullshit.

  96. shrinkers says:

    Well, folks, I’m going to be on the road all weekend. I should have another column on Monday, but very limited access Fri – Sun. I’ll miss you freaks. Play nice.

  97. dr_funguy says:

    Grog,Maybe you could do a little of your own research?Agricultural subsidiesv(Which benefit agribusiness)?Biomedical R&D (publically funded) which results in intellectual propery for big Pharma? Can you say Halliburton (I knew you could)? And no-bid contracts in Iraq…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_welfareE.g. “Alan Peters and Peter Fisher have estimated that state and local governments provide $40-50 billion annually in economic development incentives,[7] which many critics characterize as corporate welfare.”

  98. shiloh says:

    @Filienthusiasm gap~~~~~~~~~~No, a $$$ gap!!!(((This midterm is entirely unique))) as mentioned after 2006/2008 when cheney/bush totally FUBAR’d America, so much so, a bi-racial, African/American, GASP!, was easily elected president ~ the teabaggers are totally pissed at losing their reign on (((ruling America !!!)))Accordingly, after the recent Citizens United Supreme Court decision giving corporate Republican money changers unlimited reign in political fund raising as has also been mentioned ad nauseam ~ Reps have a humongous 6 to 1 $$$ advantage nationwide this election cycle as corporate America knows where their bread is buttered, eh.>Nothing new under the sun as money, money, money rules political campaigns.>Remember the MSM meme of 2006: If the Dems can’t regain congress in 2006, when will they ~ and the 2008 meme: If the Dems can’t regain the presidency in 2008, when will they! Then the Dems nominated Obama and Reps like Bart wet their pants 🙂 thinkin’ the Dems had screwed the pooch once again lol.Oops! Presidential politics 101, one political party screws up and is replaced by the other party. >hmm, in 2010 the MSM political meme should be: With the Reps humongous 6 to 1 nationwide $$$ advantage w/outside, totally undocumented, political campaign funds coming from their billionaire friends, if they don’t regain the House and Senate, how embarrassing!Lem me repeat:If they don’t regain the House and Senate, and many governorships, how embarrassing!Expectations, eh.Again, nothing new under the sun as money rules politics and the wingers are really, really pissed this election cycle re: being in the minority 😉 and are spending a lot of money to rectify this outrageous situation lol.Will really enjoy if Meg Whitman and Linda McMahon lose, I digress.The best govt. corporate America can buy!>Which is why, in a lot of ways, Harry S. Truman was America’s last great president ~ The buck stops here!America survives despite itself!ok, so much for reality and philosophy as we now return you to winger ad nauseam minutia er Bart posting more polls …btw Bartles, how longgg were you in the fetal position after Obama’s election.Just wonderin’take care>security code: 11111

  99. dr_funguy says:

    Because different folks (funded by the same billionaires) are telling you the same lies? That is appealing?

  100. Jean says:

    GROG,re: When Japan lowers their corporate tax rate early next year, the U.S. will have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. What corporate welfare are you talking about?GROG, an article, though from 2008 is still relevent since only a few of these loopholes have, so far, been able to be closed by the Obama administration.http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-03-20-corporate-tax-offshoring_N.htmlAt issue is the U.S. tax code’s treatment of profits earned by foreign subsidiaries of American corporations. Profits earned in the United States are subject to the 35% corporate tax. But multinational corporations can defer paying U.S. taxes on their overseas profits until they return them to the USA — transfers that often don’t happen for years. General Electric, for example, has $62 billion in “undistributed earnings” parked offshore, according to recent Securities and Exchange Commission filings. Drug giant Pfizer boasts $60 billion. ExxonMobil has $56 billion.Tell me this is not corporate welfare, GROG. And do you really think the USA should be in a race to the bottom, where American workers have to compete with workers in third-world countries who make perhaps $5.00 per day? It’s no wonder the middle-class income has been flat for at least the last decade. The only middle-class jobs remaining in the USA seem to be union jobs.It is to the benefit of all Americans if jobs are here in the USA. Although a complex and multi-faceted problem, resolving this should be something that both Republicans and Democrats should be able to work together on fixing, both fixing the corporate tax rate and the loopholes – if they are truly interested in having an American middle-class, if for no other reason than to be able to buy what you are selling.

  101. shrinkers says:

    It’s no wonder the middle-class income has been flat for at least the last decade. The only middle-class jobs remaining in the USA seem to be union jobs.Let’s also note that the Republicans last week BLOCKED a bill that would have closed a loophole rewarding companies that move jobs overseas.Once again, the Republicans kill American jobs.

  102. shrinkers says:

    … and while I’m at it, note that the Republicans blocked action on extending the Bush tax cuts for people making less than $250,000.Once again, they only look out for the fat cats. How’s that common-folk faux populist thing workin’ out?And wingers, don’t give me the dance about how we gotta keep taxes low for the wealthy because of jobs — they’re already sitting on trillions. Extending the tax cuts will just give them more trillions to sit on. And will balloon the national debt by another $700 billion in just the first 10 years, another $4 trillion or so in the ten years after that. How’s that fiscal responsibility thing workin’?And Republicans have been opposing tax cuts for small businesses, who generate the majority of jobs. 96% of small businesses would have benefited from the tax cuts which the Republicans refused to extend.Hypocrites, all of ’em.

  103. shrinkers says:

    96% of small businesses would have benefitedActually, that was incorrect. 100% of small businesses would have benefited. Because they all would have gotten the tax cuts extended on the first %250,000 of profit. But the 4% of small businesses whose annual income is over $250,000 would have had small tax increases on the portion of their income over $250,000.Yes, “small” increases. Back to the levels of the Clinton boom years.Republicans, constantly, are job killers.

  104. Alki says:

    “This country was founded upon principles of limited central government and its the reason we have become the greatest, most powerful, most benevolent nation in history. We’re the envy of the world. No one is immigrating to France. Why do you want to abandon that so you can be like the rest of the world?”**************************************Grog, I appreciate the sentiment but let me point a few fallacies in your argument. First of all, the gov’t in the US has never been limited. There always has been a presidency, a legislature, a court system and state gov’ts. There is nothing limited about that system. That’s about as complex as you can get.In the beginning, its true the gov’t was relatively limited in size but the US was a small nation at its founding. However, its grown dramatically and significantly over the last nearly 250 years.Secondly, our country was founded in violence, not benevolence…..and it grew its manifest destiny through violence. Eventually, we became a super power and while we are more benevolent than most super powers we have not been benevolent. We have relied heavily on weaponry when we were not able to get our way otherwise.Thirdly, the US became powerful nation because we had a vast array of resources, were conveniently removed from most of the civilized world and had neighbors that did not pose a serious threat to our sovereignty.As for no one emigrating to France, that’s just plain silly. All the have nations experience immigration from the lesser nations. Why not…..if life can be better?As for the envy of the world, I am not sure that is very true any more if it ever was. Our life expectancy is around 35 in the world…just above Mexico. We rank 24th in terms of our educational system. We have greater poverty than most first world nations. We have more violence than most first world nations. While we have excellent medical facilties, only a portion of the population can afford it. We have higher rates of homelessness than most first world nations. We lag the world in hi speed rail development. And now we are lagging the world coming out of the recession.I am afraid your thesis needs an update.

  105. Alki says:

    @ BartIts expensive hiring people who aren’t qualified for the job in the first place and then firing them 2 years or 4 years or 6 years later. Rs need to do a better screening of the people they try to put into positions of power in the first place.

  106. Alki says:

    On the same day Ras released it’s latest KY poll with Rand +11, the Dems pulled their KY ad buys and withdrew them to CN and WV. KY joins dozens of House seats and a handful of Senate seats the Dems have written off.http://www.nationalreview.com/battle10/248425/paul-11-dems-giving-ky-andrew-stiles********************************** @ Bart…..Funny your post. This week Bluegrass came out with a poll that says Conway and Paul are all tied up. Now who do you think knows the state better…….Bluegrass or Ras? My money is on Bluegrass. BTW Conway had another successful internet fundraiser to which I contributed. ;-)Jack Conway pulls even with Rand Paul in Bluegrass Pollhttp://www.courier-journal.com/article/20100925/NEWS0106/309260041/1008/NEWS01/Jack+Conway+pulls+even+with+Rand+Paul+in+Bluegrass+Poll

  107. Bart DePalma says:

    Alki::::chuckle:::Go check out the internals. 51% of the sample are Dems and Conway still can’t catch up.http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20100925/EXTRAS99/100924005/Poll-Results-Conway-pulls-even-with-PaulI love desperate Dem media polling.

  108. Monotreme says:

    I love desperate RWNJ ranting.Let’s look at the data, shall we?Still an uphill climb for Conway. You might even say he has an 11% chance of winning.

  109. Monotreme says:

    Repost to fix malformed link:===I love desperate RWNJ ranting.Let’s look at the data, shall we?Still an uphill climb for Conway. You might even say he has an 11% chance of winning.

  110. Jean says:

    shrinkers,re my previous comment: But multinational corporations can defer paying U.S. taxes on their overseas profits until they return them to the USA — transfers that often don’t happen for years.And interestingly, although multi-national corporations can and do park their profits offshore indefinitely, they also can and do deduct their expenses from their US claimed earnings. All legal, according to US tax laws. So these multi-national corporations are simultaaneously avoiding US taxes by parking profits offshore, but paying less taxes on what little income they do claim in the US by deducting related expenses.Corporate welfare, indeed.

  111. shiloh says:

    @Bartles:::chuckle:::Go check out the internals. 51% of the sample are Dems and Conway still can’t catch up.~~~~~~~~~~hmm, chuckle indeed!In Ky. race, Tea Partier tones it downDemocrats actually hold an advantage in Kentucky elections: About 56 percent of voters are registered Democrats, while 37 percent are registered Republicans. And Democrats hold most statewide elected offices. Still, the state’s Democrats often vote for Republicans running for Congress, and they are more aligned with the GOP on issues such as gun rights and abortion.Conway has been targeting those voters, (((touting an “A’’ rating from the National Rifle Association))) and passing out “Sportsmen for Conway’’ bumper stickers. He acknowledges Tea Party movement anger.“I don’t disparage the Tea Party,’’ he said in an interview. “I disparage Rand Paul.’’~~~~~~~~~~So, as you can see, polling 51% of Dems may be a tad low, eh.>>>Bart, polling is a science, taking registered voters in both parties and a states history re: voter turnout in each party, etc. etc.Just want to let you know how polling works ie some states have more Dems and some states have more Reps and pollsters take all facets of a state’s voting history into account.>Try to educate yourself Bart as even hyperbolic, disingenuous teabaggers can be educated if you make an effort. ;)Really :)>Bottom line:If Conway beats Paul thus grasping defeat from the Jaws of 100% Rep victory in a Ruby Red state … I too will :::chuckle:::take care, blessings

  112. shiloh says:

    btw Bartles, During the seven-minute speech, Paul never mentioned the Tea Party movement.‘nuf said!

  113. GROG says:

    Alki,A few things.Sure our nation has grown since it’s founding, but our Federal Government has grown at a far greater rate than our population. It’s turned into a monstrosity of waste and inefficiency. We have catastrophic amounts of debt that will never be able to repaid. The size of government is out of control and has crippled this economy and destroyed job growth and recovery. First of all, the gov’t in the US has never been limited. There always has been a presidency, a legislature, a court system and state gov’ts.I never said “no government”. I said “limited government”.Our life expectancy is around 35 in the world…just above Mexico. We rank 24th in terms of our educational system. We have greater poverty than most first world nations. We have more violence than most first world nations. While we have excellent medical facilties, only a portion of the population can afford it. We have higher rates of homelessness than most first world nations. We lag the world in hi speed rail development. And now we are lagging the world coming out of the recession.These are all due to failures of Big Government.

  114. shortchain says:

    Grog,How is interpersonal violence and inability to afford medical care due to Big Government?I mean, what’s the mechanism by which BG affects spousal abuse? And how does BG (by which I presume you mean Medicare), which significantly underpays medical providers, at least according to the medical profession, drive up the cost of medical care?’Cause it seems to me that your flat statement is driven not so much by an orderly train of thought than by ideologically rigid preconceptions.

  115. Gainsbourg says:

    The republicans are cool with everyone earning ten dollars a day because that’s what the free market calls for. If the Chinese and Indians can live off ten bucks a day then Americans damn well better start getting used to that. These are not my words. I’ve read countless comments from conservatives parroting these same words.

  116. dr_funguy says:

    Grog”These are all due to failures of Big Government”If so then countries with more “Big Government”, i.e. Sweden, Germany, France, UK… pretty much every other industrialized nation, should have lower life expectancey, higher health care costs, higher crime, and so on. I have yet to see you present a logical, evidence-based rationale for your criticism of liberal policy. Instead you give us knee-jerk republican talking points: taxes bad, small government good. If you want to be faith-based in your policy recommendations, that is fine; but you are fooling yourself to think it is anything else. A better use of your time would be to actually study some of these issues.

  117. Alki says:

    @ BartI love desperate Dem media polling.****************************************Desperate? Hardly. This is the year of the teaper. Rand was supposed to win handily esp. in solid red KY. Funny thing though……the teaper is struggling to hold onto his lead. I understand why you are worried. I would be too. 😉

  118. Alki says:

    @ GrogYes, the gov’t has grown……we have a bloated military. On that we can agree Cut back the military so that its not the monstrosity in the world that it is…….use the saved monies in the US, not in Iraq to build a monstrosity of an embassy like Bush did.For a country as big as ours, the gov’t IS limited and its needed to keep things running smoothly. Through Prop 13, Rs successfully limited gov’t in CA and the state is on the verge of anarchy. The theories and policies coming from American right have proven disastrous whether it be tax cuts for the rich or limiting gov’t. Its enough with that BS. The right no longer makes any sense.Those failures you cite are successes in countries with even bigger gov’ts. The ones Rs mistakenly call socialist. Those failures are due to the fact that we spend too much money outside the country on non American things and Republican wars. Its enough already. Spend more on this country and those numbers will move up nicely.

  119. Bart DePalma says:

    Many here have been asking for polling information showing that the Indis have shifted heavily from the Dems to the GOP this cycle. The Pew polling notes a monster 31 point shift in Indis from 2006 when they supported the Dems 57% to 39% to 2010 when they are now supporting the GOP 49% to 36%. http://www.rove.com/polling_notes/0000/0120/PN_N_09.30.10.pdf

  120. filistro says:

    @Bart… The Pew polling notes a monster 31 point shift in Indis from 2006 I suppose it doesn’t cross your tightly closed mind that the make-up of the so-called “Indie” group has been massively skewed since 2006 by an influx of Republicans who don’t want to call themselves Republican anymore because the brand has been so damaged.Get with the program, Bart. Indies are a big flock of red-eyed Republicans wearing demon-sheep “Indie” suits. They are IINO’s.BTW… Isn’t it funny how the Dems seem increasingly calm and confident while Bart is the one grasping at straws and flailing in all directions?September 29, Bart. That was the day your “wave” began to ebb. We’ll begin to see polls in the second week of October that will confirm it.

  121. Alki says:

    @ GrogYes, the gov’t has grown……we have a bloated military. On that we can agree Cut back the military so that its not the monstrosity in the world that it is…….use the saved monies in the US, not in Iraq to build a monstrosity of an embassy like Bush did.For a country as big as ours, the gov’t IS limited and its needed to keep things running smoothly. Through Prop 13, Rs successfully limited gov’t in CA and the state is on the verge of anarchy. The theories and policies coming from American right have proven disastrous whether it be tax cuts for the rich or limiting gov’t. Its enough with that BS. The right no longer makes any sense.Those failures you cite are successes in countries with even bigger gov’ts. The ones Rs mistakenly call socialist. Those failures are due to the fact that we spend too much money outside the country on non American things and Republican wars. Its enough already. Spend more on this country and those numbers will move up nicely.

  122. Jean says:

    The ongoing battle for the soul of the Republican party continues and here come the social conservative “wedge issue” teapers.http://www.congress.org/news/2010/10/01/tea_parties_may_tackle_abortion

  123. Bart DePalma says:

    BD: “The Pew polling notes a monster 31 point shift in Indis from 2006 “Fili: “I suppose it doesn’t cross your tightly closed mind that the make-up of the so-called “Indie” group has been massively skewed since 2006 by an influx of Republicans who don’t want to call themselves Republican anymore because the brand has been so damaged.”Actually, the shift from the GOP to Indi and Indi to Dem occurred in 2006 and 2008. Starting last summer, the trend started to reverse.In any case, this shift in partisan self identification occurred on the margins and does not even begin to account for the massive defection of nearly a third of the Indis from the Dems to the GOP in the Pew congressional generic. This is a shift of historic proportions and along with the enthusiasm chasm has led to all the historically high GOP congressional generic numbers.If you want to believe that this is all a bad dream and that I am “flailing” with one poll after another, be my guest. I will happily continue to surf the tsunami.

  124. filistro says:

    Here’s another one for your collection, Jean. I thought of you as soon as I saw it. :-)No matter what happens in November, we are going to witness many entertaining and destructive squabbles from within this troubled marriage.

  125. Alki says:

    @ BartWhat I find amusing is that I think you honestly believe that if Rs win in November, small gov’t will follow shortly thereafter. Not only is that not going to happen for many reasons but R leaders don’t even have the brains to pull it off. More importantly, what you as the little R, are promoting is fascism…..the growing collaboration between gov’t and corps. Just this AM News Corp announced another million dollar gift to the GOP. They make no pretense what they are doing and you, the little R, sit there with a big screw in your back. At least the rest of us recognize what is happening and are trying to fight it but you are falling for all the R lies of small gov’t and no spending hook, line and sinker….and doing it with such arrogance. LMAO…….you poor fool!

  126. Jean says:

    fili,re: No matter what happens in November, we are going to witness many entertaining and destructive squabbles from within this troubled marriage.Yes, very entertaining. And very destructive, though they won’t bring out the really sharp knives within the GOP until after the mid-terms.

  127. Bart DePalma says:

    Alki:You raise a valid concern amidst on otherwise silly rant – How does the Tea Party ensure Congress does what we elected it to do?Boehner seems to have received the message.http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/us/politics/01boehner.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaperAnd the Pledge wasn’t a bad start. However, I suspect that we in the Tea Party will need to keep up the pressure at our representative’s offices and town halls. Indeed, a large 2011 tax day rally on the DC mall might be a good idea.Moreover, we should not restrict this pressure to the GOP. Any surviving semi-centrist House Dems and every Dem Senator up for reelection in 2012 should get an equal earful.Washington is like a preschool in that it needs constant and close attention.

  128. Alki says:

    @ BartFirst of all, my rant was not silly. Look up what fascism means and then try to look objectively at what your party is doing across the board. Carefully watch the recent USSC decision on corps giving to campaigns. Then watch as Fox News gives up any pretense of being fair and balanced and provides another million to the GOP. Only an idiot would not see the writing on the wall.Secondly, your teapers who barely have a brain among what the 6 of them will not be able to do squat when they get to Congress. They will be freshmen. By the time they have figured out the system and have a modicum of power, they will have been thoroughly co opted just as the class of ’94 got co opted very quickly. Why? First of all they will recognize that their goals are not feasible. In fact they are ridiculous goals. More importantly, they are Rs….even your fringing teapers are really Rs. And as Rs, they don’t have an honest bone in their bodies…….and are motivated more by greed than principle. We’ve seen it all played out year after year.Truth is your teapers are just crazy Rs brought to the surface because Rs can’t stand to be out of power or to even share power. They are reinvented Hooverites, McCarthyites, Goldwater girls, radical members of the religious right and the silent majority…..updated with teabags for the 21st century. They are nothing…brought out for one purpose and one purpose only……to regrab power through fear. In the end, they will be a blip on the American landscape, disgarded when they are no longer needed.So sorry.

  129. Alki says:

    @ BartOh yeah……and that pledge…..haven’t heard a word about it since they first brought it up. Shouldn’t Rs be talking it up big time? Yeah, I thought so.

  130. shortchain says:

    Bart,You really should think things through a little more. The TP is driven by anger. This is not a sustainable emotion. It’s already starting to fade, as we see in the declining numbers attending their get-togethers.If the TP manages to elect some of their candidates, who then start to go their own way, the anger will not be sufficient to throw them all out, absent the fury we see now. (Personally, I’m of the opinion that there simply won’t be the impetus, given that the overwhelming majority of these candidates are white. The anger just won’t keep on.)You are just deluding yourself yet again.

  131. shiloh says:

    @BartlesWashington is like a preschool in that it needs constant and close attention.~~~~~~~~~~Which again begs the rhetorical question:Where was Bart and the rest of his teabaggers er 538’s winger trolls when cheney/bush were the kindergarten cops from 2001 to 2009!hmm>Which begs another question:Who was the private tutor who did Bush’s homework when he was in grade school?>Bartles, thanx for your conservative preschool metaphor 😉 as maybe you should write another fictional tome like your Socialism inanity …take care, blessings

  132. robert verdi says:

    As someone hoping for a big “RED November” and proud to have attended the first tea party, it seems like as good a tactic as any. I will put it like this, I prefer this admin trying to motivate its base rather then attacking.

  133. robert verdi says:

    The point was to answer Dem accusations of having nothing to stand for. Even if the dems savage the proposal precious time and money gets spent discussing the issues that the GOP cherry picked.

  134. Monotreme says:

    Robert Verdi (is that you, Charles?) wrote:The point was to answer Dem accusations of having nothing to stand for. Brilliant strategy. Respond to charges of having nothing to stand for by creating a document that outlines nothing, thereby underlining the exact nature of the nothing that they stand for.I get it! It’s like a Purloined Letter, except that you hide nothing in plain sight!Brilliant!

  135. shiloh says:

    Robert Verdi like Bartles, has a reading comprehension problem!>And no, Robert Verdi Robert is not Charles:Robert VerdiMy Blogs:Advanced Placement Government Help The 46The Minority LeaderThe 46Blogs I Follow:<img src="http://www.genpage.com/e2.jpg"&gt; Meet the Real Sarah PalinBride of RoveConservative PropagandaConservatives4Palin.comDraftPalin2012ENVIRONMENTAL REPUBLICANMidnightBlueNoli insipientium iniurias patiPolitics and Critical ThinkingPrivate !Pundit &amp; PundetteRight KlikRight View from the Left CoastSarah Palin in 2012Sarah's Full-Court PressStepping Right Up!Terry Ann OnlineThe 46The Minority LeaderThe SkepticratsThru My EyesWith Bias>and like Charles and Bart, he has a palin fetish … although it’s likely Charles palin fetish was tongue-in-cheek 😉

  136. robert verdi says:

    The point is for the opposition to burn time on GOP talking points.

  137. robert verdi says:

    I am still trying to figure the people on this site out. I have honestly stated positions using my real name, and yes I sometimes disagree with arguments here.( although on this post I agree Obama should try the stiffen the spine of his supporters) The counter-attacks tend to be over the top, why?

  138. shiloh says:

    @BartlesWashington is like a preschool in that it needs constant and close attention.~~~~~~~~~~Which again begs the rhetorical question:Where was Bart and the rest of his teabaggers er 538’s winger trolls when cheney/bush were the kindergarten cops from 2001 to 2009!hmmand thanx for your conservative preschool metaphor ;)take care

  139. shiloh says:

    RVshiloh, and?~~~~~~~~~~As stated, like Bart, you have a reading comprehension problem. Which is not surprising, having read ad nauseam conservative retorts at progressive blogs since 2003 …take care

  140. Monotreme says:

    Robert Verdi (who is not Charles) wrote:I am still trying to figure the people on this site out. I have honestly stated positions using my real name… The counter-attacks tend to be over the top, why?“At what time of the year do the robins nest in America?” — Puccini, Madame Butterfly

  141. filistro says:

    @robert verdi… The counter-attacks tend to be over the top, why?I think a few of the regulars here are mistaking you for various unsavory characters we had to deal with at the old 538 blog. Some of our righties over there were pretty nasty.I don’t think you are one of those guys… at least thus far I don’t recognize your writing style. And I agree you have been reasonable and fair in your presentation… (as well as on topic, which is admirable :-)If you want to present arguments from a right-wing point of view in a calm, courteous manner, you are certainly welcome here.I agree with you that Obama’s time is well-spent trying to fire up his base.. he’s good at it, he’s effective, and his approval numbers always rise when he does it.I disagree the Dems are wasting time concentrating on the GOP Pledge…as far as I can see, NOBODY is paying any attention to the Pledge except the angry Republican base who feel it ignores their issues.

  142. robert verdi says:

    what talking point am I using ad nauseum?

  143. robert verdi says:

    I appreciate your comment, I can’t say if I will be a regular here, but I can say good luck and success with your blog.

  144. filistro says:

    Thank you robert. You should consider being a regular… there are only a few righties here and they have a tough time beating back all the well-reasoned arguments from the left. ;-)It’s more fun when all views are represented. I spend a lot of time studying the posts at Free Republic, where anyone even suspected of holding a liberal view is immediately banned. I just don’t see the sense in that. It’s dangerous when people start thinking everybody agrees with them.

  145. shiloh says:

    @RVwhat talking point am I using ad nauseum?~~~~~~~~~~Again, ad nauseam referred to: Which is not surprising, having read ad nauseam conservative retorts at progressive blogs since 2003 … as was stated, a separate observation.ie other conservatives in the past who have reading comprehension problems and not your (talking points).>So again, a reading comprehension problem. :)>Whereas I will agree most conservatives don’t have a reading comprehension deficiency in as much as they just want to deflect 24/7 not having a rational/intelligent reply to an asked question.Which is also typical at progressive blogs: conservative red herrings er deflections.>In a nutshell ~ Bart’s debating style er lack thereof lol.take care

  146. Bart DePalma says:

    Folks, I am off to Italy for two weeks celebrating 25 years of marriage to my wonderful wife. My posting will be sporadic at best. Somehow, I suspect there will be other things to do in bella Italia.Ciao.

  147. Alki says:

    Just for you Bart:But the NEWSWEEK Poll’s most revealing finding is that despite months of media coverage insisting that voters are “mad as hell and not going to take it anymore,” anger is unlikely to decide this year’s elections. For starters, self-described angry voters constitute only 23 percent of the electorate, and there’s no reason to believe that they’re more likely to cast ballots in November than their calmer peers. Why? Because the percentage of angry voters who say they will definitely vote in the midterms is statistically indistinguishable from the overall percentage of voters who say the same thing (84 percent vs. 81 percent). In fact, majorities of voters say they would not be more likely to vote for candidates who express anger at Washington incumbents (60 percent), Wall Street bankers (52 percent), the illegal-immigration problem (53 percent), the Gulf of Mexico oil spill (65 percent), or health-care reform (55 percent). Fifty-three percent of voters see Obama’s unemotional approach to politics—his “coolness”—as a positive, versus only 39 percent who don’t.”http://www.newsweek.com/2010/10/01/newsweek-poll-anger-unlikely-to-be-deciding-factor-in-midterms.html

  148. mclever says:

    Have a wonderful trip, Bart. Take the the time to enjoy bella Italia with your bella wife and don’t think about us or politics at all for a few days.:-)Seriously, I hope you have a wonderful trip, and congrats on 25 yrs!

  149. mclever says:

    Interesting article from Newsweek, Alki.I certainly hope they’re right, though I also worry about Democrats’ enthusiasm.Skepticism from some Dems aside, enthusiasm usually does have a strong correlation to voting behavior, because those who are enthusiastic (on average) are more likely to follow through on election day. They still only get one vote, no matter how excited they are about making it. So, it becomes incumbent upon the less enthused to ramp up GOTV efforts to counter the enthusiasm gap.

  150. shrinkers says:

    Bart, I wish you the best trip possible. Congrats on 25 years. I hit 34 years last May. Welcome to the Quarter Century Club!

  151. shrinkers says:

    @robert verdi I appreciate your comment,I’m commenting late. I was traveling today.I want to echo filistro’s comments. All thoughts are welcome. In general, people are responded to in the way they present themselves. You have been calm and rational.I can see your argument about the “Pledge.” Indeed, it was an attempt to respond to the criticism that Republicans can nothing to offer. I think the attempt failed, but I agree with you that was the attempt.I understand your notion that, if there was a national conversation about this document, it may play into the Republicans’ hands because it will be a conversation about their favorite issues — issues that they are very good at turning into pro-Republican talking points. On the other hand, having presented this document, with great fanfare, after announcement moths ago they were going to do it — it seems now sort of anticlimactic to not be saying much about it. Almost as if they’re embarrassed by it. (As well they should be, I think.)I believe good points have also been made on the other side — that if the R’s pushed this document, they’d continue to upset the Teapers, upon whom they are relying for any possible gains. It’s pretty telling, I think, that Republicans are not actually running on this list of talking points.

  152. Bart DePalma says:

    Alki:To start, Newsweek polls are notorious for over counting Dems and yours is weighted with 8% more Dems than GOP. They are without a doubt the worst of the slanted Dem media polling. Newsweek was sold for a dollar this year for a reason. Next, the Dem left is pissed off at the Dem leadership as well, but are expressing it by staying home. Thus, when Newsweek lumps together all folks who are pissed at the Dems, the angry Dem left drags down the Tea Party turnout numbers.If you are going to cite polling, cite something credible like Pew, Gallup, Battleground and Ras.

  153. shrinkers says:

    the Dem left is pissed off at the Dem leadership as well, but are expressing it by staying home. Uhm, since the election hasn’t actually happened yet — no one has had the chance to “stay home.” Or to not “stay home.”Your chickens haven’t hatched yet, my friend.

  154. shiloh says:

    @BartlesTo start yada yada yada~~~~~~~~~~Good to see Bart is already enjoying his trip! ;)Mrs. DePalma is indeed a lucky lady …Rome Adventure ~ Al Di LaDino Paul Crocetti ~ That’s AmoreHappy 25th 🙂

  155. Mainer says:

    Good go on the trip with your wife Bart from another old married man.

  156. Alki says:

    @ mcleverWhat I know is how I vote. I have voted every year since I became legal to vote. I don’t vote because I am angry…….I vote because I see it as my civic responsibility. Just because some teaper is mad as hell doesn’t effect my decision to vote at all. I think that’s true for a lot of people.In addition, OFA has been sending out emails checking to see if we are still registered to vote. I got mine on Thursday. In my email, they provided a link to the voting registrar in my state so I could double check. That means Obama and Dems are working hard to GOTV and I think its very effective.In addition, Obama is working hard to get blacks and Latinos to come out and vote. They are the Dems who tend to skip midterm elections. Fortunately, the latest polls show growing enthusiasm in both communities. Rs would like us to believe we’ve lost already. We haven’t lost yet…..not by a long shot.

  157. Alki says:

    @ BartMy point of posting that paragraph was not to present you with a bunch of numbers but to show case this particular comment:”Why? Because the percentage of angry voters who say they will definitely vote in the midterms is statistically indistinguishable from the overall percentage of voters who say the same thing (84 percent vs. 81 percent).”As for credible polls, Cook and others have said the only credible polls are the more expensive ones commissioned for internal use by the Dems or the Rs or some other organization. The ones we see ad nauseum……the Pews, the Ras, the Gallups……are dime store stuff.That makes the Newsweek poll just as credible as Ras….maybe more so since everyone knows Ras is over counting Rs this cycle.Enjoy Italia!

  158. Alki says:

    @ shrinkersThat’s right, shrinkers. I am mad as hell that the Senate Dems struck a deal with the Rs to restrict Obama’s ability to make recess appointments just before they leftt his week. Does that mean I won’t vote in November? Of course not. But what it does mean is that Senate Dems will get less money from me. 😉

  159. shrinkers says:

    2 fascinating things about polls showing “voter enthusiasm” …1) NO one has ever show any causative link between “enthusiasm” and turnout.2) R’s have been angry (read “enthusiastic”) ever since Obama was elected. They still are. Most voters don’t even pay attention to the next election until Labor Day, Then, they slowly start getting involved. So most voters don’t get “enthusiastic” until, say, mid-October. “Enthusiasm” polls are meaningless before then.That’s why campaigns — even Republican ones — spend most of their money in the last month. If what I said in point 2) above was not true, they’d spend all their money a year before the elect, and coast the rest of the way.I’m still making no predictions. I’m just saying we have not seen anything that accurately predicts the Nov election. Polls (at best, when they’re honest) are descriptive, not predictive.

  160. Alki says:

    *Democrats will hold the House and Senate *For Democrats, it’s Rove time: Rally the base and save Congresshttp://theweek.com/bullpen/column/207701/democrats-will-hold-the-house-and-senate/

  161. Mr. Universe says:

    Enjoy your trip, Bart! Best to the missus. Venice is lovely this time of year.

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