Most Telling

(Ed. Note. Update: Senate Repeals DADT)

This morning, the Senate voted for cloture on the bill repealing Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Six Republicans voted in favor of cloture:

  • Susan Collins (ME)
  • Olympia Snowe (ME)
  • Mark Kirk (IL)
  • Lisa Murkowski (AK)
  • George Voinovich (OH)
  • Scott Brown (MA)

All of them, except for Brown and Kirk, have been in the Tea Party’s sights. Given how Brown has proven to be very moderate by Republican standards, I wonder how long it will be before he, too, is targeted.

Updated to add: The final Senate vote is expected to occur at about 3PM EST.


About Michael Weiss

Michael is now located at http://www.logarchism.com, along with Monotreme, filistro, and dcpetterson. Please make note of the new location.
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48 Responses to Most Telling

  1. filistro says:

    @Michael… I wonder how long it will be before he, too, is targeted.

    Perhaps this will answer your question.

    If anything gets the Freepers all stirred up, hot and bothered, just itching to primary somebody… it’s “gay rights” or “traitors to the winger cause.” When you COMBINE those two, you have a perfect primary storm.

    Poor Scott Brown… his days are numbered.

  2. Bart DePalma says:

    Michael:

    DADT is not even a passing blip on the average Tea Party supporter’s radar. If the Tea Party strongly opposed this, it would have lost.

    The DADT repeal should serve as an archetype of how the left can win a fact based small “d” democratic debate. The courts declined to provide repeal opponents with an undemocratic workaround and they were forced to make their case to the voters. Fili did a superb job in a recent post which convinced me.

    Why can’t progressives make the DADT repeal campaign their SOP in the future?

  3. shiloh says:

    Bartles ~ Whatever is best for the team, huh?

    As Bartles continues to deflect/misinform …

    whine

    moan

    groan

    Again, feel free to stop playin’ the victim at any time as it’s soooo unbecoming when conservatives (((cry me a river))), eh that one can only repeat Mainer’s eloquence ~ So right Fili and Max and Bart do you never get tired of being an asshole?

    ok, it bears repeating:

    So right Fili and Max and Bart do you never get tired of being an asshole?

    polls 😀 indicate by popular demand, one for the road!

    So right Fili and Max and Bart do you never get tired of being an asshole?

    >
    >
    >

    and it appears, Gasp! a few Reps are actually gonna act like (((human beings))) today and DADT will be repealed !!!

    Bartles, run for the hills as America surely is no longer the country you grew up in, eh lol

    As Otter said quite heroically in Animal House: Bart is not gonna sit here and listen to you people bad mouth the United States of America!

    >

    Adding to my previous post.

    * Susan Collins (ME)
    * Olympia Snowe (ME)
    * Mark Kirk (IL)
    * Lisa Murkowski (AK)
    * George Voinovich (OH)
    * Scott Brown (MA)

    Decided to act like human beings Bart as Reps er teabaggers no longer have any party discipline lol.

    So Bart, you’ll be switching your party affiliation to which party ???

    Just wonderin’ as your pathetic song and dance rationalizations continue, especially when America/Obama/Dems win on a human rights issue and the Reps lose.

    Did I mention Bartles and his Reps lost! And it was a victory for Barack Hussein Obama !!!

    Merry Christmas log cabin Reps!

    take care, blessings

  4. Monotreme says:

    Yay.

  5. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Bart said: “DADT is not even a passing blip on the average Tea Party supporter’s radar. If the Tea Party strongly opposed this, it would have lost.

    Yeppers! Just like NOT INCREASING THE DEBT BY $900 BILLION dollars in only two years!

    Oops, wait a sec. Guess we missed that one. Or maybe INCREASING THE DEBT is NOT on the Tea Party radar. Especially as long as the Koch’s and the other wealthy and corporate backers of the Tea Party are able to get THEIRS at the expence of our children and grandchildren.

    Damn! The plot exposed!

    Sorry, Bart. How does it feel to have been played like a Stradivarius in the hands of Perlman?

  6. Brian says:

    Hooray, my gay friends will rejoice that they are accepted by the military. Not.

    They will however, be pissed off at every state that didn’t approve of this. It’s much akin to people agreeing the sky is blue. No one is appreciative that people recognize that it is blue, because that’s blatantly obvious. Instead, everyone is pissed at people that say the sky is red, because you’re an idiot if you think as much.

  7. filistro says:

    @Bart.. DADT is not even a passing blip on the average Tea Party supporter’s radar. If the Tea Party strongly opposed this, it would have lost.

    Which reinforces what I said yesterday about the Tea Party forcing the GOP to become more secular. Not that I’m opposed to that… I believe less religion in politics is always a Good Thing. But I do wonder who is doing the math over there these days.

    Bart… how do you see your way to winning elections after softer social policies in the GOP like non-opposition to DADT have alienated the evangelicals? It seems to me the current GOP needs its entire coalition of corporatists, small govt. hawks, social conservatives and evangelicals in order to remain competetitive. If even one of those units peels off or stays home, they’re pretty much toast. Aren’t they?

  8. filistro says:

    Political trivia aside… it’s really a GREAT DAY, isn’t it?

    I’m smiling all over my whole face. It’s lovely when things like this happen that let me love America again.

    “For the first time in two years, I’m proud of my neighbour” 😉

  9. filistro says:

    Brian… the Freepers predict (and they’re right)… that gay marriage will now inevitably be legalized. Because how can you argue that people who are openly gay can legally be allowed to die for their country… but still not legally be married to the ones they love?

    In most other countries (including Canada) sweeping gay rights have begun in the military with open service, and then spread to all other areas of life and law.

  10. shiloh says:

    And the ‘Dream Act’ failed because of a winger filibuster ~ soooo instead of 67/31 Latino vote for Obama in 2008 we’re probably looking at 75/25 in 2012 for Obama.

    And Reps need at least 45% of the Latino vote to be competitive in presidential elections as they become more of a political force in American elections. Just ask Senator sharron angle 😀 Another case where Reps lose by winning short term.

    Big picture, big picture, big picture as conservatives are totally tone deaf ie (((presidential political reality for Reps!)))

    btw, The final vote total was 55-41 — well above what would be needed for the bill to pass in a normal vote. Many previously undecided Democrats voted in support of the bill, as did Republican Sens. Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) and Bob Bennett (R-Utah).

    But others voted mostly along party-lines. Six Democrats voted against the bill: Sens. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), Mark Pryor (D-Ark.), Jon Tester (D-Mt.), Max Baucus (D-Mt.) and Kay Hagan (D-N.C.), who switched her vote to a “no” at the last minute.

    Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way! ~ Thomas Paine

  11. Monotreme says:

    Watching vote on CNN. Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr struggles, and is eventually unable, to explain Sen. McCain’s position that DADT repeal will kill troops.

  12. Brian says:

    I agree, absolutely and utterly, with your points. Because all of this should be legalized. I live in Atlanta, which means that realistically, about 30% of my friends are gay. None of this should be an issue. Even before people said this wasn’t an issue

    Oh, and to the point of Canada being so awesome, I agree. Given my awesome intelligence (I work for a top 10 chemist in the world), I will probably move to the UK, Canada, or Australia by the end of 2014. Unless there is a radical difference that I’m not foreseeing.

  13. mclever says:

    DADT repeal passed in the Senate 65-31. Having already cleared the House, it’s now headed to Obama’s desk for signing.

    McCain’s amendment to the START treaty failed (~59-38, but I missed the actual tally). If it had passed, it would have jeopardized our security by forcing a re-negotiation of the treaty with our allies and friends across the pond. As it is, Congress still needs to ratify the treaty for it to take effect, but the failure of the amendment means it’s still possible to have the treaty in place before Xmas.

    🙂

    Just your friendly CSPAN update!

  14. mclever says:

    Brian: “I work for a top 10 chemist”…

    Oooh, real science! OK, I’m adding you to my ever-growing list of braniacs who post on this site!

    🙂

  15. Mr. Universe says:

    ‘Bout damn time. So much for not letting Obama have any victories. START, anyone?

  16. dcpetterson says:

    Chalk up a big loss for the Teapers, and a victory for Obama and for the nation. A repeal of the law was clearly the only way to do this — the Obama Administration was right to oppose striking the law down in the courts.

    Scott “The One” Brown is going to get primaried out of the party, after having been hailed as the Great White Hope only last January. Poor guy — he turned out to actually be a Massachusetts Republican, which means more of a Democrat than most Blue Dogs.

    So now we have six Republican senators with something of a conscience — and, therefore, a short expected political lifespan. The totalitarian GOteaParty can’t live with independent thought.

    John McCain is being pushed ever farther to the wacky right by his spineless fear of Teapers. If anyone had the balls to stand up to loonies like that, back in 2000, I would have said it was McCain. But clearly not. War veteran he may be, but his political flipflops remind me of a dying fish. Except that fish are vertebrates.

    So watch for Collins, Snowe, Kirk, and Brown to be replaced in the next couple of primary cycles by the likes of Sharron Angle, Christine O’donnell, and Joe Miller. The Democrats are surely back on track to regain 60+ seats in the Senate, perhaps as early as 2012.

    This is a great day for America, and a great day for the Constitution.

  17. filistro says:

    The president is having a VERY good Christmas. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Took the GOP to the cleaners on the “tax bill”, sneaking through a massive new stimulus that’s finally going to turn the economy around…. CHECK.

    Got a repeal of DADT, gladdening the lives of some 66,000 patriotic gay Americans currently serving in secret, and 14,000 discharged under DADT who can now apply for reinstatement (plus their families)….. CHECK

    Proceeding to orderly pre-Christmas ratification of START, which will show Republicans just what Americans think of politicians who play silly games with national security… CHECK.

    Like I said… a very Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year too. (The next batch of employment numbers are, I think, going to be extremely heartening ;-))

  18. filistro says:

    LOL… if you happened to be wondering how FURIOUS the Freepers are about the repeal of DADT….. check it out.

    Ahhh… schadenfreude! Gotta love it.

    Nothing smells quite as good as roasted bigots on a cold winter afternoon… 😎

  19. Armchair Warlord says:

    Thank God. DADT has dragged on much too long.

    The US military has a lengthy record of successfully integrating new groups into its ranks and open gays and lesbians will be the latest. Considering that the military was racially integrated in the middle of the Korean War, “it’s wartime” isn’t really much of an excuse not to.

  20. dcpetterson says:

    Lets also point out — Obama adds yet another kept promise to the long and growing list. And DADT was a big one. It may well be enough to win a couple of close states in 2012. It certainly will help to re-energize the Democratic base and to mute some of the loonie criticism from the far left. Plus, it was brilliant politics, putting the Republicans — who pretend to be the party of military strength — on the wrong side of one of their own issues, besides being on the wrong side of history.

    A big win all around.

  21. filistro says:

    Armchair Warlord… I’m always grateful when you weigh in from the sane portion of the right-wing spectrum. It tends to restore my faith in my fellow man.

    Last month I posted an article on DATD, outlining the results of an extensive study done on the Canadian military a few years after they instituted their open service policy in 1992.

    Some key findings:

    * Lifting of restrictions on gay and lesbian service in the Canadian Forces has not led to any change in military performance, unit cohesion, or discipline.

    * Self-identified gay, lesbian, and transsexual members of the Canadian Forces contacted for the study describe good working relationships with peers.

    * The percent of military women who experienced sexual harassment dropped 46% after the ban was lifted. While there were several reasons why harassment declined, one factor was that after the ban was lifted women were free to report assaults without fear that they would be accused of being a lesbian.

    * Before Canada lifted its gay ban, a 1985 survey of 6,500 male soldiers found that 62% said that they would refuse to share showers, undress or sleep in the same room as a gay soldier. After the ban was lifted, follow-up studies found no increase in disciplinary, performance, recruitment, sexual misconduct, or resignation problems.

    * None of the 905 assault cases in the Canadian Forces from November, 1992 (when the ban was lifted) until August, 1995 involved gay bashing or could be attributed to the sexual orientation of one of the parties.

    There’s absolutely no reason to expect things will be any different in the American military. As you said… long overdue.

  22. Bart DePalma says:

    BD: “DADT is not even a passing blip on the average Tea Party supporter’s radar. If the Tea Party strongly opposed this, it would have lost.”

    Fili: “Which reinforces what I said yesterday about the Tea Party forcing the GOP to become more secular. “

    I must have missed that post. Can I assume then you are off your kick that the Tea Party is some religious conservative movement? I have been telling you as much for over a year now.

    Fili: Bart… how do you see your way to winning elections after softer social policies in the GOP like non-opposition to DADT have alienated the evangelicals?

    Can you accept the fact that repeal proponents have actually swung the voters on this issue? What turned the tide was all the gay war veterans who started to come out. Nothing like military vets to change the minds of other military vets.

    As for religious conservatives, you will notice that most of the GOP voted against repeal in deference to this part of their coalition. The defection of a handful of the usual suspects is not exactly going to drive the religious conservatives into the arms of the Dems who initiated the legislation.

  23. filistro says:

    @Bart… Can I assume then you are off your kick that the Tea Party is some religious conservative movement?

    Not at all. I think the Teapers are probably about 65-70% religious social conservatives.. in other words, brand new name, same old GOP base. But they also want passionately to regain power so they can control and force the national agenda. Having noticed that extreme religiosity is not a big seller anymore, they’ve decided to take off the “I Heart Jesus!” t-shirts and put on the “I’m A Fiscal Conservative!” ball caps to see if they can broaden their base of support.

    Unfortunately their support is already as broad as it’s going to get, and alienating the evangelicals is not going to help. That’s their whole problem… if they are overtly socially conservative, they’re not the shiny new small-government Tea Party.. they’re the same creepy bunch who want the government peeking into your bedroom and your medical records. But if they neglect the evangelicals, they lose a crucial support bloc. It’s an insoluble problem.. .and the rock on which the Tea Party’s governing hopes will inevitably founder.

  24. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    fili,

    That fiscal conservative ship sank with the $900 Billion hole in the debt!

  25. dcpetterson says:

    No one is buying the idea that Teapers aren’t religious fanatics. They are. We’re pretty clear on that.

    Nor is anyone buying the meme that Teapers care about the deficit. They use it as a cynical talking point. But they are fine with borrowing a trillion from the Chinese to give Federal tax giveaways to their arrogant elite overlords. We’re not stoopid.

    It’s entertaining when Teapers bleat their rhetorical nonsense. Pretty cute, too. It makes sane people wonder if Teapers are dumb enough to buy that schtick, or if they really are as manipulative and dishonest as they appear to be. I’m going for the former.

  26. Bart DePalma says:

    It is so amusing to read progressives who have supported the largest increase of domestic federal spending in American history complain the the GOP (and all those Dems who voted with them) “increased the deficit” (sic) by declining to raise current tax rates.

    Can you folks be honest about anything?

  27. Mainer says:

    A good move but one that needs to be watched to make sure the intent is indeed followed by all of the military top brass. It will be interesting to watch several things over the next few years:
    1, expect the number of gays and lesbians already in the military to grow. Not sure if some of you have noticed but the reported number beleived to be in the military has continued to creep up. I think fili has used the number of 66K that has surface recently. I can remember when the number being bandied about was maybe half that. Wat we will most likely now see is even more over time reveal their real selves and push that number up considerably (I have no data to support this but I do have 30+ years of military back ground and that is what I think we will see)
    2, We are going to have a number of individuals that are currently in the military kick up a little fuss in opposition. These individuals will make bogus demands and sulk and threaten to leave……..they will be counciled and then quickly jetisoned if they can’t get on with the program. The military will improve. Those individuals that have to ride herd on misbehaving members will over a relatively short peiod of time find their work load reduced as the homohawks are replaced. A big part of this will be because these same homohawks seem to also be involved in a preponderance of hetro issues as well (again no data but more experience than I like to think back on).
    3, At least one and possibly 2 major service chiefs will either get major ass chewings or find other employement.
    4, John McCain will not serve out his entire new term. He is one tough old bird and I expect him to still be with us but his grip on reality seems sadly to be slipping. One of the first things to watch for will be staff members moving on as he becomes more and more disconected. How ever it ends at this point it is going to be a very sad closing chapter for some one I have greatly admired.
    5, The birther Lt.Col that seems to have found new understanding and respect for the chain of command will be made an example of. A nonrate might have made it through (probably not but odder things have happened) but an O-5…….no way in hell.
    6, START is going to make it. From a military/foreign policy stand point those holding it up are getting their lunch eaten. Other cooler heads are going to make this go away before they give more election adds to the other side.
    7, Health care for the 9/11 folks will make it. I am guessing this will be much the same as with START. How many campaign adds do you want to provide the other side? Look also for this to get a little nastier in the next couple of days. The Republicans don’t really need to remind people just how badly they have cooked the books on this. EPA cover ups any one? McCain refering to it as fooling around must have caused a ton of Republican tooth enamel to have been lost already.
    8, Some thing will be cobbled together to keep the government running…….for now. But lost in the shuffle will be better protection of our food supply. One of two things will now happen. Some crazy will target it as a weapon or more likely less than caring companys will exploit the weakness of the system and we will have some major situation arise with deaths and hype and every one will ask why we don’t have current functional protections in place………..and the Republicans will hand the Democrats another set of adds.
    9, The State of the Union speech will have more theater. Mr. Wilson blats in DC will look like a primer. Most Americans are not going to like what they see and hear……and yet more adds for the other side.
    10, and finally to close out my sort of ten head shakers of Christmas we will have dear Mr. Issa make a daily assa of himself, his party and congress.

    Move over mother, crank up the surround sound and lets have some Christmas and New Years cheer while we watch the Reublican/teaper/freeper/geepers/creepers prove yet again that governance is not in their skill set tool bag.

  28. GROG says:

    fili said:

    sneaking through a massive new stimulus that’s finally going to turn the economy around…. CHECK.

    So you’re saying tax cuts are stimulative? You guys are starting to sound like Reagan conservatives.

  29. filistro says:

    GROG… tax cuts for millionaires are not stimulative. But tax cuts for the middle class (which Obama has always promoted) like the SS tax cuts in the compromise bill definitely are. And economists have shown over and over again that the single most stimulative thing you can do for the economy is extend UI benefits to the unemployed… who spend that money as soon as it gets into their hands. Every dollar paid out in UI produces $1.22 in the economy… and a 22% return on investment is a pretty good stimulus.

  30. filistro says:

    Numbers differ on this… the tables here show that every dollar in UI benefits adds $1.64 to the economy, while every dollar spent extending the Bush tax cuts adds 29 cents.

    So Obama swallowed a (temporary) non-stimulus in one area in order to get a really strong stimulus in a couple of other areas.

  31. fopplssiegeparty says:

    I find it quite interesting that Bart says, “DADT is not even a passing blip on the average Tea Party supporter’s radar.”

    Bart, please take the short trip to Freeperville (as suggested by fili) and observe the apoplexy that is occurring there.

  32. filistro says:

    foppsie… the Freepers are up to 1,000 comments on that thread and still going strong. The hatefulness has now sparked some nasty internecine warfare. A couple of the old-timers (both of whom are retired military) are trying to inject a note of reason… which has caused the “100 per-centers” (as one of them terms the rabid anti-gay mob) to howl for the admins to come and “zot” them.

    “Waahhh… terminate his account! Ban him from the site! He isn’t being sufficiently hateful and horrible to the Evil Gays!!”

    I would add (to supplement the perceptive comment you just made to Bart)… Jim Robinson, site manager and author of the thread in question (“If you support the homosexaul agenda, get the hell off this conservative site!”) … Jim Robinson is the creator, organizer and promoter of the major teaper group, the “Tea Party Express.”

    But yeah… clearly DADT is “not even a passing blip” to these guys. Sure thing, Bart.

  33. shiloh says:

    Bartles ~ Can you folks be honest about anything?

    Again, just one of many examples of 538 progressive honesty:

    Bart do you never get tired of being an asshole? Mainer’s rhetorical question.

    I could go on ad nauseam re: 538 liberal honesty 🙂 and Bart’s winger troll disingenuous/misinformation/deflection dishonesty, but, but, but again don’t want to be redundant as it wouldn’t be prudent, although indeed, fun and entertaining! Diminishing returns re: Bart kicked in a couple days after he arrived at 538! But if we don’t play w/him, who the fuck will ?!? as once again progressive empathy is overflowing!

    Bart again, your 538 bs posting detector is badly in need of repair …

    solo estoy diciendo

    >
    >
    >

    and grog just can’t get enough of 538’s echo chamber ~ Go figure!

    a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest …

  34. Jean says:

    Bart,

    re: DADT is not even a passing blip on the average Tea Party supporter’s radar.

    Wrong, Bart. According to my teaper siblings, repeal of DADT is something they vehemently opposed because they see DADT as the camel’s nose under the tent towards repealing the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA). And to the teavangelicals this is a huge issues. They cite the fact that even with DADT repealed, without DOMA being repealed, gays in the military will not be allowed military housing with their partner and families or federal benefits to same-sex couples.

    DOMA is the hill the teavangelicals are willing to die on, and with the repeal of DADT, teavangelicals fear repeal of DOMA is next. And it will be.

  35. Bart DePalma says:

    Jean:

    Of the 90 million voters who cast ballots last month, 41% or almost 37 million of them were self identified Tea Party supporters. Your couple siblings hardly offer a representative sample of Tea Party supporters.

    The Tea Party folks were repeatedly polled as to their major concerns leading up to the election and DADT or same sex marriage did not even come close to the top. Individual Tea Party members like individual Dems can have a wide variety of issues which are important to them personally. However, when identifying major issues important to a movement of 37 million voters, you look at shared concerns.

  36. Mainer says:

    Yeah those teaper types hardly noticed DADT. That probably explains why there are not one but 2 threads on it at FOX with comment counts in the thousands. The level of teaper angst is amazing. Bart wants to be careful blowing this off as the head teaper beagle, or what ever it is called, may zot him too.

    I guess some of the teaper types in this state could all but have a mass wrist slitting session. Hey why they are surprised beats me. They have spent several years going after our two Senators, they have already made threats, they have already promised to primary them out of office so now our two Senators go back and show the independent streak that has kept them in office with high vote counts and the very same people that had already promised to drive them from power are shocked……..shocked I tell you at what these two………………….addd vitriol of choice………….horrible women have done. Odd thing is we could very well end up with 2 Independent Senators from the great state of Maine. I think some one has opened their eyes..

    We will not get rid of DOMA any time real soon. But the courst are going to have a damned hard time buying separate and unequal for openly serving people in the military. That will be chink two. Our present SC will find some way to Dread Scott it but they can only delay not prevent for all eternity.

  37. filistro says:

    Bart… from the Oregon Faith report, on the extensive study by the Public Religion Research Institute of Teapers and faith issues:

    … But the survey challenged much of the other conventional wisdom about Americans who consider themselves part of the Tea Party movement:

    —Nearly half (47%) also say they are part of the religious right or conservative Christian movement. Among the more than 8-in-10 (81%) who identify as Christian within the Tea Party movement, 57% also consider themselves part of the Christian conservative movement.
    —They make up just 11% of the adult population—half the size of the conservative Christian movement (22%).
    —They are mostly social conservatives, not libertarians on social issues. Nearly two-thirds (63%) say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, and less than 1-in-5 (18%) support allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry.
    —They are largely Republican partisans. More than three-quarters say they identify with (48%) or lean towards (28%) the Republican Party. More than 8-in-10 (83%) say they are voting for or leaning towards Republican candidates in their districts, and nearly three-quarters (74%) of this group report usually supporting Republican candidates.

    (emphasis mine)

  38. Bart DePalma says:

    Fili:

    Let’s see if I can sum up your position: Tax rate reductions for the poor and middle class do more to stimulate economic growth than comparable reductions for the wealthy because the wealthy are more likely to invest rather than spend the money the money the government graciously allows them to keep.

    Query: What on Earth do you think investment capital is used for?

    Folks invest in anticipation that the objects of their investments will grow and provide them with a reasonable rate of return. That, my dear, is called economic growth.

    In stark contrast, businesses can and are indeed currently sitting on revenues made from consumer spending without investing growth and hiring.

    This is why the rate of economic growth took off after the Reagan across the board tax rate reductions and dropped when Clinton increased rates for the wealthy and much of the middle class while dropping them for the folks most likely to spend the money.

  39. filistro says:

    @ Bart… Economic growth dropped when Clinton increased rates for the wealthy and much of the middle class????!!

    What parallel universe DO you occupy, Bart? And how many moons orbit your home planet?

  40. filistro says:

    Also Bart… I believe DC has shown you on several occasions, with painstaking thoroughness, that investment by the wealthy in the stock market does not stimulate the economy… it just moves numbers around on paper.

    SPENDING ON GOODS AND SERVICES is what stimulates the economy.

  41. shiloh says:

    Bartles ~ 41% or almost 37 million

    So as we don’t think you may be makin’ shit up, as per usual ~ please feel free to provide certifiable/verifiable evidence er citations …

    btw Bart, what is your current 😀 definition of teabagger ~ just wonderin’

    take care

  42. dcpetterson says:

    Query: What on Earth do you think investment capital is used for?

    Mostly, it’s used for buying and selling pieces of paper.

    If tax breaks for the incredibly rich will cause new jobs, why didn’t it do so for the last ten years?

    Supply-side doesn’t work. We’ve watched it entirely fail. The arrogant elites keep sucking up America’s wealth and giving nothing back. Time to change that.

  43. dcpetterson says:

    businesses can and are indeed currently sitting on revenues made from consumer spending without investing growth and hiring.

    Then it’s clearly time to impound that useless money and provide it to consumers. Giving more corporate welfare to the people who are already sitting on two trillion isn’t going to convince them to use any of it for the good of the nation.

  44. dcpetterson says:

    In January of 1993 when Democrat Clinton took office, the DOW stood at about 3400. When he left office in Jan of ’01, the DOW was around 10,600, and the US had added around 22 million jobs. We also had the largest Federal surplus in history, around $300 billion. And Clinton accomplished this even with a Republican Congress. That is Democratic economic policy

    When Republican Bush took office in Jan ’01 the DOW was around 10,600. When he left in Jan ’09 it was about 8000, and over the next two months the Bush crash continued to drive it to about 6500. Over the Bush presidency we had a net loss of about two million jobs. Bush’s last fiscal year left us a $1.7 trillion deficit. Wages for the middle class declined. And Bush accomplished this with six years of a Republican Congress, and then with Republican obstructionism continuing to control the Senate through ’07 and ’08. That is Republican economic policy.

    Why are we even still discussing this? The Republicans turn gold into straw, and then charge us for it.

  45. shiloh says:

    Why are we even still discussing this?

    Again, because “we” feel empathy for Bartles as nobody else will play w/him. Bart is a firm believer in repetition ie if you say something often enough it must be true.

    When the legend becomes fact, print the legend …

  46. dcpetterson says:

    Oh by the way, Reagan also raised taxes, I think it was 13 times, including what was at the time the largest single tax increase in history. Crediting his tax cuts for the modest growth under Reagan is absurd, and ignores the rest of the economy. Besides, any growth under Reagan was dwarfed by the Clinton boom — and then destroyed by the Bush crash.

    Face it, Republicans are very very bad for the economy.

  47. Jean says:

    Bart,

    re: Your couple siblings hardly offer a representative sample of Tea Party supporters.

    A couple siblings? As I have explained to you previously, I have 11 siblings, 10 of who are teavangelicals. Despite what you refuse to believe, my 10 teavangelical siblings tell me they support the Tea Party because they are are using the Tea Party as the most convenient vehicle to further their teavangelical social conservative wedge issues (mainly abortion); those same social conservative goals that the mainstream Republican Party has ignored for years.

    John Boehner’s going to have his hands full tamping down Bart’s newly-minted “fiscal conservative” teapers, placating the social conservatives to avoid their social issues becoming the platform of the Republican party, while simultaneously having some “skin in the game” and actually having to govern.

    Mainer,

    re: The military will improve. Those individuals that have to ride herd on misbehaving members will over a relatively short peiod of time find their work load reduced as the homohawks are replaced. A big part of this will be because these same homohawks seem to also be involved in a preponderance of hetro issues as well (again no data but more experience than I like to think back on).

    Homohawks. Perfect description.

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