Blame the Democrat?

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Governor Jerry Brown (Image via Wikipedia)

I have a great interest in the politics of the West Coast, having spent much time in those states. As a result, I’m very interested in the return of Jerry Brown as Governor of California.

This week, I saw an op-ed in the San Francisco Examiner that truly astonished me. The Examiner is an exceptionally conservative tabloid, in the same vein (and owned by the same people) as the Washington Examiner. It’s rare that I read something in that paper that surprises me; it’s a typical mashup of right-wing talking points. But I took notice at this:

Indeed, the history of the state’s chronic fiscal woes begins with the passage of Proposition 13 and, more pointedly, Brown’s decision to embrace it after its passage, shovel billions of dollars in state funds to local governments and schools to replace lost property taxes, then immediately slash state taxes.

The editorial is blaming Jerry Brown for the impact of Proposition 13, despite his extremely vocal opposition to it prior to its passage. And despite Republicans having held the Governor’s Mansion for more than twice much time as Democrats since its passage.

But what makes this especially astonishing is this: it’s a conservative editorial talking about limits on taxation as a bad thing! Proposition 13 was the first battle in the conservatives’ war on taxation, and this is the first time I’ve ever seen acknowledgement from the right that such single-minded opposition to taxation isn’t necessarily good.

Is it possible that the time has finally arrived for intelligent discussion about tax policy? I sure hope so, because it seems to me that Proposition 13 has done more damage to California than anything else that has ever happened to the state.


About Michael Weiss

Michael is now located at http://www.logarchism.com, along with Monotreme, filistro, and dcpetterson. Please make note of the new location.
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77 Responses to Blame the Democrat?

  1. Mr. Universe says:

    It isn’t surprising that Republicans try to pin the blame tail on the donkey for things that they created. It is disgusting though.

  2. GROG says:

    @Michael,

    Prop 13 aside, California is still one of the highest taxed states in the union, both in terms of individual taxation and business taxation. It’s considered one of the worst states in which to do business. They have the highest sales tax in the nation, 4th highest individual income tax rate, ranks 49th in terms of business climate, and despite Prop 13, still ranks in the middle in terms of property taxation.

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/15.html

    If you give tax breaks in one place, California will find ways to get it in another.

  3. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG,

    Here in Texas I see we, according to YOUR citation, rank ABOVE California in “State and Local Sales Tax per Capita”. GOP Governor these past 16 years and GOP control o BOTH houses in legislature

    I see Florida ranks 9 states ABOVE California in the category, 8 ABOVE Texas, GOP Gov, 16 years, GOP control of BOTH houses in legislature.

    Property taxes, hey Florida above California AGAIN. AND SO IS ALASKA!!!!!!

    So what’s your point?

  4. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG, BTW

    In CA I paid 1% property tax on the valuation of the house at time of purchase, no annual appraisal increases allowed.

    Here in TX I pay 2% and the Appraisal District can up the appraisal up to 10% in a year. Even with the housing bubble burst, I’m paying more this year (due by the end of this month) than in 2007!

    And your point again?

  5. GROG,
    California rankes in the middle in terms of property tax dollars per capita, not in terms of property tax rate. This is important because the costs of many government services have a high correlation to the real estate values (for several reasons). Sales taxes make a poor substitute for property taxes when covering services that are resident-based, such as police, fire, library, parks, and utilities.

    California ranks at the bottom of the top quintile in terms of overall taxation, well behind Wyoming. Similarly, California’s business taxes are only 35% per capita that of Alaska. Nobody ever talks about those two states as being especially onerous.

    It’s not as simple as you make it sound.

  6. Bart DePalma says:

    CA has a gross over spending problem. Not counting Alaska which spends slot of oil money for it’s sparse population, CA only trails NY in per capita state and local spending.

    That does not count the hundreds of billions in future pension obligations for it’s Dem public employee unions.

  7. dcpetterson says:

    GROG
    It’s considered one of the worst states in which to do business

    That must be why there are so many huge corporations with their headquarters there, and why California led the world in high-tech.

    You can offer some data supporting your statement, if you’d like.

  8. GROG says:

    Michael/Max,

    My point is that California does just fine in revenue collections. Their problem, like other huge bueraucracies like Illinois and New York, is that they spend way too much.

  9. GROG says:

    DC,

    I gave a link above, but here’s some more:

    California ranks last in best and worst states to do business.

    http://www.chiefexecutive.net/ME2/Audiences/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications::Article&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=59FD13C5177B40B0B2D3EBA9E4384572&AudID=F242408EE36A4B18AABCEB1289960A07

    Tax Foundation lists California 49th best in business climate.

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp60.pdf

    Even CNBC has them at a pitiful 32nd place in business climate.

    http://www.calchamber.com/Headlines/Pages/StudyRanksStatesBusinessClimatesCalChamberOffersSolutionstoImproveCaliforniasRanking.aspx

  10. GROG says:

    “It’s no mystery what causes companies to leave California: High taxes, undue regulation, workers’ comp costs, a legal environment stacked against businesses and lengthy and costly construction permitting requirements,” says list compiler Joseph Vranich, president of JV Executive Consulting Inc. in Irvine.

    100 companies that left California from Orange County Register.

    http://jan.ocregister.com/2010/02/24/list-names-100-companies-leaving-california/31805/

  11. shortchain says:

    GROG,

    We have two choices in assessing your comment:
    1. You are the governor of a state, or chairman of a national commission, whose expertise allows you to make categorical statements like “California spends way too much” or …
    2. You are parroting something you read somewhere without attribution (and, in my opinion, with a credulity that does not become any sapient being).

    Like Bart, you are too prone to confirmation bias to be trusted as a source of information. As are we all, sir, which is why many of us use these newfangled things called “hyperlinks” to indicate where we get our evidence.

  12. shiloh says:

    grog, must be why Conan the barbarian er the terminator er the Republican gov of CA from 2003 to 2011 job approval rating in July 2010 was 22% ~ job disapproval (((70%))).

    And he continues to say, I’ll be back … lol

  13. shortchain says:

    GROG,

    I see you’ve now given some hyperlinks. Yes, the right-wing conservative Tax Foundation, the Chamber of Commerce, and Chief Executive net. Oh, they would have no reason to want to justify greed.

    Thanks. Perhaps you should, for balance, take a look at the Socialist Worker’s Party.

  14. dcpetterson says:

    GROG
    California ranks last in best and worst states to do business.

    Have you any clue as to who did the ranking and what their criteria was? (I could follow the link, but I’d be interested to hear your take on it.)

    Tax Foundation lists …

    I really couldn’t care less about what the Tax Foundation says. They’re not exactly neutral. Or even sane.

    100 companies that left California from Orange County Register.

    Companies move around all the time. Give me some ratio of companies leaving to companies moving in.

  15. GROG says:

    DC,

    Can you find a statistic for companies moving to California? I can’t.

    Can you give some evidence that California is not a bad state in which to do business? I can’t.

    Or some evidence that it’s a good state in which to do business? I can’t.

  16. GROG says:

    @shortchain,

    Have you ever read the “Places we visit” on this page?

    ■Countdown with Keith Olbermann
    ■Dagblog
    ■FiveThirtyEight/New York Times
    ■Politico
    ■Salon
    ■The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
    ■The Huffington Post
    ■The Rachel Maddow Show
    ■Young Real Politiks

    And you’re lecturing me about The Tax Foundation? If you don’t agree with the findings or the methods I referenced, you’re free to state why?

  17. dcpetterson says:

    GROG
    Can you find a statistic for companies moving to California? I can’t.

    Then maybe you shouldn’t be making a point about companies moving out. That statistic by itself is meaningless.

    Can you give some evidence that California is not a bad state in which to do business? I can’t.

    Of course not. It’s a subjective judgment. Claiming it as a fact either way makes you look silly.

    Or some evidence that it’s a good state in which to do business? I can’t.

    Then maybe you shouldn’t be making claims about it either way. It’s silly to take any position on it at all, and it’s a silly argument to get involved in. Thus endeth the lesson.

  18. dcpetterson says:

    GROG
    Have you ever read the “Places we visit” on this page?

    We are unabashedly opinionated. Anyone who takes our statements as proof of anything is a fool. Addressing the arguments made can be a reasonable thing to do. Quoting us as proof would be silly.

    Likewise with the Tax Foundation. We admit to being opinionated. The Tax Foundation dishonestly pretends to be objective. Therein lies the difference.

  19. shiloh says:

    If you don’t agree with the findings or the methods I referenced, you’re free to state why?

    and grog, you’re also free to state why your sources are credible/reliable, certifiable.

    There are lies, damned lies and statistics … context is also very important ie your bias and your sources bias to misconstrue the facts.

    but, but, but grog, at least you’re not as biased er obsessed as your conservative idol Bart …

    take care

  20. GROG says:

    DC,

    The point is that companies aren’t moving to California. That’s why you can’t find any evidence to support otherwise.

    California is a terrible place to operate a business. That’s why you can’t find any evidence to support its a good place to do business.

    If you think the Tax Foundation is dishonest and isn’t worth being taken seriously, explain why. Give specifics and then we can have an hones debate about it.

    Don’t just say “they’re poopy heads so you can’t cite any findings from them”.

  21. drfunguy says:

    @Grog
    “Can you find a statistic for companies moving to California? I can’t.” January 6, 2011 at 17:06
    “The point is that companies aren’t moving to California. ” January 6, 2011 at 17:38
    Which is it?
    You do realize that you contradict yourself within 32 minutes?

  22. shortchain says:

    GROG,

    Until the last year or so, companies were moving to California. It was, in fact, a big problem, back a few years, for the midwest technology industry. The fact that they’re not right now proves absolutely nothing. Companies are not moving at all, right now, except from the “active” list to the “out-of-business” list.

    The current movement — or lack of it — has little or nothing to do with the state of California by itself — it has more to do with the national and international recession caused by the regulation failure recession fostered by the GOP.

    I read the Tax Foundation — and have before — but I’m not enough of a fool to imagine that they’re any less biased than the SWP. Perhaps you think they are, in fact, less biased. I do note, however, in passing, that the TF and other research-for-hire organizations like AEI, Cato Institute, and the like, seem to get a lot more money from the wealthy than the SWP does, and, as a consequence, their reports and web site always look a lot slicker.

    California is definitely in trouble. So is Texas. So is South Dakota (and has been for about a hundred years, and, I’d bet, for another hundred years.) True, South Dakota is in about the same amount of trouble they’ve always been, not more — it’s one of the benefits of being a permanently depressed area that you’re not affected by downturns in businesses you have never received any benefit from. But to single out California, as if they’re the single or worst situation, is dishonest and stupid.

  23. GROG says:

    Doc,

    I’m making the conclusion that I cannot find the statistics for how many companies are moving to California because there aren’t any companies moving to California.

    Feel free to find that statistic and prove me wrong if you wish.

  24. shortchain says:

    GROG,

    Since you have so much evidence that companies are moving away from California, I’m sure you can tell us where they’re moving to.

  25. dcpetterson says:

    GROG

    I’m not going to give much of an answer your latest post because drfunguy and shortchain did such a good job of doing so. (Thanks, guys.)

    I’ll only comment on this:

    Don’t just say “they’re poopy heads so you can’t cite any findings from them”.

    I didn’t. I said they’re biased. And I accepted your comparison of them to us.

    The Tax Foundation has an agenda. That their “findings” would support their agenda is neither surprising nor even particularly interesting. And certainly not worth quoting.

  26. dcpetterson says:

    GROG
    Feel free to find that statistic and prove me wrong if you wish.

    You’re the one trying to make a point here. So far, you haven’t made it. Don’t ask for proof that you’re wrong. Provide some actual evidence that you’re right. We’ve given you some indication of what might help. If you can’t do it, that’s not on us.

  27. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG
    How about companies headquartered in just the San Francisco and Bay Area:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_headquartered_in_San_Francisco

    Of ALL these (YOU can count them if you wish) those in the Fortune 500 are:
    Franklin Resources, Symantec, Oracle, Safeway, Ross, Google, Ebay, Yahoo!, Chevron, CalPine, Savina-SCI, Intel, HP, Cisco, Applied Materials, Apple, Agilent, AMD, Clorox, Genentech, Wells Fargo, Charles Schwab, PG & E, McKesson and Gap.

    That’s 25, 5% of the entire Fortune 500! In SF alone!

    Wanna try for LA??????? and the REST of the state?

  28. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG

    I’ll help you out with LA: 53 Fortune 500 companies. LOTS of others, but here are the F500’s:

    57. The Walt Disney Co., $36.1 billion in revenue.
    61. Northrop Grumman Corp., $35.3 billion
    80. Ingram Micro, $29.5 billion
    116. DirecTV, 116, $21.6 billion
    146. Health Net Inc., $15.7 billion
    150. Occidental Petroleum Corp., $15.5 billion
    159. Amgen Inc., $14.6 billion
    187. Edison International, $12.4 billion
    203. Jacobs Engineering Group Inc., $11.5 billion
    304. Western Digital Corp., $7.5 billion
    331. Dole Food Co., $6.8 billion
    352. AECOM Technology, $6.2 billion
    355. DaVita Inc., $6.1 billion
    362. Avery Dennison Corp., $6 billion
    387. Mattel Inc., $5.4 billion
    394. Reliance Steel & Aluminum, $5.3 billion
    401. Pacific Life, $5.2 billion

    Believe me, I have no love lost for CA, but it’s a nice place to visit and I enjoyed my 11 years there.

    But YOU need to have your ducks in a row before you Bart off about something you have no real concept of.

  29. shiloh says:

    Feel free to find that statistic and prove me wrong if you wish.

    And since grog is too lazy to provide verifiable/certifiable sources of his own misinformation, we are free to ignore him if we wish …

    but, but, but that would deny many here of easily makin’ him look like a fool. A very small entertainment value to be sure as 538 has another catch-22 discussion ie conservatives w/no factual evidence vs. liberals repeatedly asking for said evidence.

    Again, the yin and yang intelligent progressives vs. trollish/uneducated, obsessed conservatives at a liberal blog.

    carry on

  30. Bart DePalma says:

    Grog, if I may assist…

    Folks, Californians have been voting with their feet and leaving CA for other states since the 90s.

    http://www.jrap-journal.org/pastvolumes/2010/v40/gunderson40_1_pdf.pdf

    California’s population growth is from largely poor Latin American immigrants.

    What used to be an economic dynamo is now a EU style insolvent welfare state dying by degrees. Apart from maybe Michigan, CA is the archetype of progressive governance.

  31. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Bart said: “_________”

  32. shiloh says:

    Barted ~ Grog, if I may assist…

    Indeed, grog needs all the help he can get Bartles except, of course, inane talkin’ pt. nonsense from you …

    Bart, if I may ask ~ will you and your groupie grog be takin’ your song and dance winger dog and pony show on tour sometime in the future?

    Just wonderin’

  33. dcpetterson says:

    What used to be an economic dynamo is now a EU style insolvent welfare state dying by degrees.

    That’s what happens with Teaper-type tax policies. I hope the rest of the nation learns that lesson pretty soon.

  34. GROG says:

    @Max,

    So you’re saying all those companies moved from another state to California? Because that’s what DC is trying unsuccesfully to find.

  35. Bart DePalma says:

    Like many of the folks who post here, this blog rejects large amounts of linked evidence. Please recover my heavily linked post from moderation purgatory.

    Thanks.

  36. shiloh says:

    Bartles, it’s been mentioned a couple times ~ posts w/4 or more links have to be approved first soooo …

    Once again, you’re either not paying attention or being willfully ignorant!

    ‘nuf said!

  37. shiloh says:

    btw grog, you’re now excused as your idol, Bartles, will now continue your conservative argument at 538.

    Thanx for playin’ grog ..

  38. dcpetterson says:

    GROG
    So you’re saying all those companies moved from another state to California? Because that’s what DC is trying unsuccesfully to find.

    I’m not trying to find anything. I’m saying that you have given us half a statistic. Plus some nonsense from right-wing propagandists.

    You made a claim. The burden of proof is on you. I’ve claimed nothing. I’m just waiting for you to provide data before I make any decisions.

  39. dcpetterson says:

    Bart, thanks for reminding us how awful the Teaper-like tax policies, coupled with a Republican governor, has been for the state of California.

  40. shiloh says:

    Bartles your pdf link states:

    On Shifting Tax Burden and Businesses Leaving California

    A story published in Los Angeles Times tells us for all the gripes businesses have about the heavy burden of fees, regulations, and red tape, we are relatively free of high taxes. California businesses combine to contribute about what is average for businesses in other states; about 4.7 percent of what California businesses produce goes to the state as taxes. We pay less than some “more conservative” states like Alaska (13.8 percent) and Texas (4.9 percent), and we pay even less than “more liberal” New York (5.5 percent). According to the article, over the past three decades, the percentage of net corporate income paid in taxes has gradually declined from 9.7 percent to 5.4 percent. Moreover, the burden of state’s tax revenues has shifted from sales taxes, corporate income taxes, and fees to personal income taxes. Likewise, the burden of property taxes has shifted from nonresidential to residential real estate.
    ~~~~~

    Once again re: your bogus tax evidence … Oops!

  41. dcpetterson says:

    shiloh —

    You mean, a link Bart provided proves the opposite of what he wants it to? Again?

  42. dcpetterson says:

    Republicans Are Given a Price Tag for Health Law Repeal, but Reject It

    The nonpartisan budget scorekeepers in Congress said on Thursday that the Republican plan to repeal President Obama’s health care law would add $230 billion to federal budget deficits over the next decade, intensifying the first legislative fight of the new session and highlighting the challenge Republicans face in pursuing their agenda.

    These are the hypocritical ideologues now in charge of the House. Dancing kabuki theater rather than working to bring jobs back. Arrogantly raising the debt for a perceived bit of partisan political gain, unaware of how absurd they look. This is the new Republican GOteaParty.

  43. shiloh says:

    dc

    rinse, lather, repeat as CA may have many problems, but corporate tax rate ain’t one of them.

    And yes, companies leave a state when they get a better deal from another state ie tax abatements. Many companies have left MI, OH, PA, NY etc. for a better economic situation in NC, SC, GA, FL etc. plus the weather is better lol.

    Which is why high unemployment in SC is puzzlin’ as Republicans have totally screwed the pooch there, Sanford hiking the Appalachian Trail notwithstanding …

    Yes Bartles, the cheney/bush 2001/2009 legacy put many Americans and states in difficult economic situations as many companies went belly-up before they could move, eh.

    but, but, but India and China economies are doing much better as American companies move their operations overseas, although quality of life hasn’t improved.

    Again Bart, why do U.S. corporations hate America! hmm, greed ~ the corporate boardroom/Wall St. bottom line …

  44. Bart DePalma says:

    Shiloh:

    Where did I post that CA hellish business environment is due only to direct business taxes?

    There are also government imposed business costs, cost of living, regulations, unions, awful schools, shitty infrastructure, a fleeing skilled workforce, etc.

    The out migration of people and businesses is undeniable.

  45. Bart DePalma says:

    DC:

    The CBO simply offered a reverse projection for the repeal of Obamacare which still includes $500 billion in non existent Medicare savings/cuts and years of tax collections without full Obamacare outlays.

    BS in, BS out and it smells just as bad going both ways.

  46. shiloh says:

    Barted ~ BS in, BS out and it smells just as bad going both ways.

    cheney/bush 2001/2009 book title ?!? Sounds like a winner …

    Bart, your major 538 economic nonsense always revolves around high (((tax rates))) as many states have (((regulations, shitty infrastructure, a fleeing skilled workforce))), etc. etc.

    To deny your tax phobia would be quite disingenuous, but, but, but your 538 m.o. is to deny pretty much all the nonsensical crap you have posted here!

    >

    Again, BS in, BS out and it smells just as bad going both ways. is an excellent book title for cheney/bush’s autobiography! 😛

    solo estoy diciendo

  47. dcpetterson says:

    Bart:
    The CBO simply offered a reverse projection for the repeal of Obamacare which still includes $500 billion in non existent Medicare savings/cuts and years of tax collections without full Obamacare outlays.

    Not true. You simply made that crap up. The CBO scored the bill that the Republicans presented to them. Nice try, though.

    The Republicans put in place a rule that any new programs have to be offset by killing something else. Except for the bills that the Republicans actually intend to pass — these are all exempted.

    You’ve been had, Bart. As we kept telling you that you would be. Not surprising, since you simply make crap up to create the world you want to live in.

  48. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Bart’s never been in South Carolina much. He really should go there for a bit. Beautiful beaches, mountains, golf courses aplenty. GOP Governor past 20 years. GOP controlling BOTH houses for 20+ years. A veritable Tea Partyer’s wet dream.

    2011 budget deficit of $1.3BILLION for a state of just over 3.5million.
    Unemployment rate of 10.6%, well above the national average.

    Whassa matter, Bart? Theory don’t work too well in practice?

    Or is it just so much ideological bullshit?

  49. GROG says:

    DC Pettered: You made a claim. The burden of proof is on you.

    I made the claim that companies are fleeing California due to it’s hostile business climate and backed it up with studies and statistics. If you disagree with my claim, the burden of proof is on you.

  50. GROG says:

    @DC: That’s what happens with Teaper-type tax policies.

    Can you elaborate as to specifically which “Teaper-type” tax policies have led to California’s “EU style insolvent welfare state dying by degrees”.

    @Max: I’ll help you out with LA: 53 Fortune 500 companies. LOTS of others, but here are the F500′s:

    You’re not helping me out. The discussion has been about companies leaving the state of California due to it’s horrendous business climate. The data no one can seem to find is the amount of companies relocating to Californa. Not businesses that are already in California.

  51. dcpetterson says:

    GROG:
    The discussion has been about companies leaving the state of California due to it’s horrendous business climate.

    Let me recap. You made this claim, that the “business climate” in California is “bad” . You provided some information about businesses leaving. I pointed out that businesses move from one state to another all the time. “Businesses leaving” is only half of the equation. If some businesses leave, but a lot of businesses replace them, you can’t say the “business climate” is “bad”. We need also to know how many businesses are coming in or starting up. You have declined to furnish those numbers, so we have no way to judge the state of California’s “business climate.”

    Of course, the entire nation is still reeling from the Republican Great Recession. So it would be unusual if California (or nearly any other state) had a lot of startups right now. It would be hard for the “business climate” to be “good” much of anywhere. You haven’t shown in what ways the “business climate” of California is particularly worse than anywhere else.

    Max helpfully listed a large number of very successful corporations that are based in California. This seems to run counter to the idea of California having a “business climate” that is particularly “bad.”

  52. GROG says:

    @Max,

    South Carolina, like California, has a spending problem.

    From http://www.scgovernor.com/news/

    “Over the course of this Administration, the total state budget will have expanded from around $15.5 billion in FY 2003 to a projected $22.8 billion in FY 2011 – an increase of almost 47 percent. In just general fund terms, the last six years have represented a spending roller coaster that has led to harmful, and predictable, consequences. Prior to mid-year reductions, South Carolina state government grew by over 40 percent from 2004 to 2008, leading the Southeast in year-to-year government growth.”

    This is the kind of unsustainable, irresponsible government we’re seeing in large states like California, Illinois, and New York, as well as our Federal Government. We spend too much money. Republicans have acted like Democrats in South Carolina for too long.

    And it just pisses off the left that the people of SC were so fed up that they elected a woman “Teaper” for governor. Oh the horror for the progressive left.

  53. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG,

    As has been pointed out, companies move all the time. AT&T recently moved from here in San Antonio up to Dallas. Wanna compare expenses here vs. the Metroplex? Reason? Airport. No direct flights to SA! Boeing moved from Seattle to Chicago. Same question about expenses. Reason? Essentially, time zone, location, location, location.

    So JUST the fact of moving per se is insufficient info. That’s why you’ve been challenged to provide more proof.

    The company I worked for, privately held by East Coast investment banks with headquarters in Atlanta, STILL maintains its corporate offices in San Diego, even though LOTS of folks have to go in to work between 0400 and 0600 to maintain a semblance of time relationship with customers in the rest of the country!

    My answers to you were to show that, IN SPITE of your contentions, MANY companies STILL keep corporate headquarter in California. The reasons are complex, not simplistic.

    Many companies consider the factors of lifestyle, infrastructure, weather, airports and transportation in SoCal as positive recruiting tools. Many people respond positively to that. Just because YOU may not is totally irrelevant.

    When more than 10% of the F500 companies are in CA even with detriments as you pointed out PLUS being 2-3 hours behind the rest of the country, it AIN’T as bad as you make out!!!!!!!!!

  54. Bart DePalma says:

    BD: The CBO simply offered a reverse projection for the repeal of Obamacare which still includes $500 billion in non existent Medicare savings/cuts and years of tax collections without full Obamacare outlays.

    DC: Not true. You simply made that crap up. The CBO scored the bill that the Republicans presented to them. Nice try, though.

    Are you really this ignorant?

    The GOP is not offering an alternative bill for CBO to score. They have offered a two page repeal of the Dem Obamacare bill. CBO is reverse scoring the Obamacare bill with the errors I noted above.

  55. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG,

    I assure you that YOU don’t have to preach to ME about South Carolina. ( I once had the brother, who had lived a couple of years part-time in Texas, of a girl I was dating in San Diego, both of whom were from Portland OR, inform me he was going to teach me how to deal with the good ole boys in Texas when he found out I was moving here. Took EVERYTHING I had to keep from laughing in his face.) I used to be on the Board of the Association of State Planning and Construction Officials in South Carolina. I worked closely with private and state entities. And was in daily contact with state government.

    The biggest problem in South Carolina is denial. The same denial many teapers live with.

    They deny the actual costs it takes to run the education and state university systems, the actual costs it takes to run the prison system (the two biggest cost factors), the actual costs it takes to maintain sufficient quality infrastructure of roads, bridges, airports.

    I watched for 15 years when the mantra was “do more with less” in state government. It was an almost constant struggle to maintain budgets. I know it has NOT changed in the past 15 years.

    For 2011, SC has a $1.3 Billion shortfall for a $5Billion budget!

    SC is one of the lower total tax states. It has exactly ONE F500 company, SCANA (formerly South Carolina Electric and Gas).

    My adage applies: We the People of South Carolina want (and need in many cases) more than We the People are willing to pay for.

    Since you and Bart and your fellow teaper denyers can’t or won’t see that fact, I’ll rub your nose in it: IT IS A PROBLEM ENDEMIC IN PRACTICALLY EVERY STATE AND THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE.

    The modern world is complex. The simple days y’all yearn for are long past. Deal with it. The evidence, not only nationally, but state by state by state, Dem and GOP, is staring y’all in the face. Don’t be so blind! TANSTAAFL!!!!!! (Look it up)

    GROG said: “Republicans have acted like Democrats in South Carolina for too long.

    Two things:
    1) That demonstrates you know nothing about SC politics.
    2) It may well be the fucking STUPIDEST statement I’ve heard in years!

  56. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Error!!!

    I typed $5 Billion for the state budget instead of $22Billion.

    My bad.

  57. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Damn, in my haste, I keep looking at the WRONG line!!! Taking a break to get my coffee.

    $5 Billion is the correct number!

    http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/South_Carolina_state_budget

    Sorry.

  58. GROG says:

    Max,

    California’s economy is the largest in the US and 8th largest economy in the world and only 10% of F500 companies are in California? That should tell you something right there.

  59. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG,

    CA is THREE hours behind the major financial centers of the United States and EIGHT hours behind those of Europe.

    That ought to tell you something right there.

  60. shortchain says:

    GROG,

    In what universe does the person making a claim (that would be YOU) get to say, when challenged, “no, the burden of proof is on someone else.”

    Having a little time on my hands this morning, I went to look at some of GROG’s “evidence”. The Orange County Register (itself a right-wing organ) isn’t the origin of the list. No, the origin of the list is a website run by a guy whose business is helping companies move. Right. He’d have no reason to hype the “bad business climate” or “hostile regulatory climate” in California.

    Look, this has been going on forever. Companies move to the lowest-cost location whenever they can. Corporations would all move to South Dakota, or Mississippi, if they could do it without cost (and if the executives didn’t have to then live there). In this modern age, we can expect to see a lot of movement, because of what we might call “reverse telecommuting” — where the boss/owner moves the business to some hellhole, but then telecommutes from home in his/her gated community.

    Ain’t technology wonderful?

  61. GROG says:

    Max,

    We live in a global economy. F500 companies adapt to a 2-3 hour time zone difference with ease. It’s a non-factor.

  62. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    AT&T moved from SA to Dallas because of a 45 minute flight..

    You, on the other hand, still have provided no evidence, other than raw numbers, which have been countered in example after example, to support your theory.

    Waiting for ya

  63. shortchain says:

    This California problem is last-year’s news. Texas is the news today, with a budget shortfall (projected) of 25 billion on an 80-billion budget. That’s significantly worse than California’s.

    That shortfall arrived without warning, apparently, thanks to the slipshod way that Texas is governed. I wonder if GROG or Bart will think that this is due to high taxes or fierce regulation.

    But it’s an ill wind that blows no good for anyone. For example, one of the proposals to close the gap is to hike the fine for a first DUI offense to 1000. That’ll be a boon to the DUI attorneys. They can raise their rates in response. Perhaps the politicos in Colorado will follow suit.

  64. dcpetterson says:

    Bart, if you read the article I linked earlier, it says,

    The nonpartisan budget scorekeepers in Congress said on Thursday that the Republican plan to repeal President Obama’s health care law would add $230 billion to federal budget deficits over the next decade…

    and

    “C.B.O. can only provide a score based on the assumptions that are given to them,” Mr. Boehner said. … But the analysis released by the budget office on Thursday was based on the health care repeal bill that House Republicans introduced on Wednesday.

    You want to spin this some other way. But the CBO scored the Republicans’ repeal. It will add to the deficit. That’s why the Republicans specifically exempted the kabuki repeal from their requirement that new bills be paid for by cuts elsewhere.

    Hypocrisy on the hoof.

  65. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    shortchain,

    Just for information, the Texas budget is on a two year cycle. That is NOT an annual number.

  66. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    dc,

    you wouldn’t be speaking of ideology meets the real world now would you?

  67. drfunguy says:

    @Grog
    “Doc,
    I’m making the conclusion that I cannot find the statistics for how many companies are moving to California because there aren’t any companies moving to California.”
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of anything. Since you have presented no evidence, I don’t really have an opinion except that you are obviously making shit up.

  68. shortchain says:

    Max,

    Yup. But it ain’t the size of the deficit that matters. It’s the proportion relative to the “elasticity” in the budget. While California can trim, and trim, and then trim some more (assuming that the California GOP and Democrats can reach a compromise, which is a pretty big assumption), Texas, which ranks 50th in per-capita state spending, has nowhere to go. Rock, meet hard place.

    On the “health care repeal” — notice the difference in methodologies between the GOP and the Democrats.

    When the Democrat’s proposed bill didn’t meet the “cut the deficit” requirement, they tinkered with it and produced a bill which did.

    When the Republican’s proposed bill doesn’t meet the laxer requirement that it shouldn’t raise the deficit, they a) removed the requirement and b) created their own estimate, using wishful thinking and magical economics.

    There you have it in a nut (er, a wing-nut) shell.

    That Bart and GROG will go along with this is hypocritical in the extreme, after all the blubbering about deficits.

  69. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG,

    To show you how STUPID your SC GOP statement was here’s some proof:

    The reality is that spending has not kept up with population growth and inflation. Spending amounted to $1,275 for every state resident in the 1999-2000 budget, and $1,109 today, and a dollar buys a lot less today than during the dot-com era.

    Fuel, for example, is far more expensive than it was in 2000, and every 8-cent increase in a gallon of diesel adds $1 million to the state’s cost for keeping school buses on the road.

    An analysis by The Post and Courier found that if state spending had kept pace with inflation and population growth, the budget would be $7.6 billion today instead of $5.1 billion.

    Knocking an additional $1 billion off the state budget will take it back to where it was in 1995, and as bad as that sounds, it’s worse, because the state is running out of things to cut.

    “Many state agencies have budgets reduced to ‘threshold levels’ where additional cuts will trigger federal intervention and mandates or effective closure of those agencies,” said Mike Shealy of the South Carolina Senate Finance Committee, in a written presentation to the state Health Care Coalition.

    The Department of Corrections and the Department of Juvenile Justice are among “threshold level” departments.

    Some state departments — agriculture, insurance, commerce, consumer affairs, budget and control — already have seen their budgets slashed by more than half.

    http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2010/sep/26/if-you-think-its-bad-now-just-wait/

    The teaper ideology is a false pipe dream.

  70. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG,

    Here’s proof of the STUPIDITY of your SC GOP acting like Dems comment:

    The reality is that spending has not kept up with population growth and inflation. Spending amounted to $1,275 for every state resident in the 1999-2000 budget, and $1,109 today, and a dollar buys a lot less today than during the dot-com era.

    Fuel, for example, is far more expensive than it was in 2000, and every 8-cent increase in a gallon of diesel adds $1 million to the state’s cost for keeping school buses on the road.

    An analysis by The Post and Courier found that if state spending had kept pace with inflation and population growth, the budget would be $7.6 billion today instead of $5.1 billion.

    Knocking an additional $1 billion off the state budget will take it back to where it was in 1995, and as bad as that sounds, it’s worse, because the state is running out of things to cut.

    “Many state agencies have budgets reduced to ‘threshold levels’ where additional cuts will trigger federal intervention and mandates or effective closure of those agencies,” said Mike Shealy of the South Carolina Senate Finance Committee, in a written presentation to the state Health Care Coalition.

    The Department of Corrections and the Department of Juvenile Justice are among “threshold level” departments.

    Some state departments — agriculture, insurance, commerce, consumer affairs, budget and control — already have seen their budgets slashed by more than half.

    The teaper ideology of tax cuts and spending limits is NOT practical in the real world. It’s a pipe dream.

  71. shrinkers says:

    @Max
    The teaper ideology of tax cuts and spending limits is NOT practical in the real world. It’s a pipe dream.

    Teapers really do believe they can live in a world in which the gubmint spends nothing and Teapers get to keep all their pay. They believe this will allow them to get rich, and that it’ll mean they’ll no longer be paying for the extravagant lifestyles of welfare queens. We don’t need no edjukation. We don’t need no damn EPA or Social Security. Teapers all think they’ll never get sick, or get old, and if they do, they’ve got guns to get what they want.

  72. shiloh says:

    OK most, if not all of what grog posts is inane/idiotic, but his continual use of projected sexism is extremely telling …

    And it just pisses off the left that the people of SC were so fed up that they elected a woman “Teaper” for governor. Oh the horror for the progressive left.

    Pure inanity as her name is never mentioned at 538, nor in cable media ie nobody cares much about SC unless one of its governors makes a complete fool of himself hiking the Appalachian Trail down Argentine Way! 😛

    ‘nuf said! and again grog, thanx for playin’

    ok, ok, St. Paddy’s day is a holiday in SC, so that’s one positive …

    Did I mention grog is an idiot er sexist idiot! ie totally obsessed w/sexism.

  73. GROG says:

    Mas said: The teaper ideology of tax cuts and spending limits is NOT practical in the real world. It’s a pipe dream.

    The progressive ideology of spending money that you don’t have is NOT practical in the real world. It’s a pipe dream. It’s unsustainable and will end in insolvency.

    Spending must be in line with revenue. If revenue falls, spending must fall. It’s not rocket science. Your ideology and the ideologies of states like California, Illinois, and New York don’t work. That was the reason for the tsunami on November 2nd. No body trusts you anymore.

  74. GROG says:

    Should have been “Max said” above.

  75. shortchain says:

    GROG,

    Argument by asserting a sequence of idiotic talking-points. No numbers, no supporting evidence (apparently you didn’t learn anything from your previous attempt.) Pathetic.

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