Democrat Gabrielle Giffords and Others Shot in AZ.

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ)

NPR reports that Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) has been reportedly shot along with five others in Arizona. Are Sharron Angle’s second amendment remedies being taken too seriously? We will post updates as available.

Update from NPR: “Giffords was talking to a couple [at a public event at a Safeway] when the suspect ran up firing indiscriminately and then ran off, Michaels said. According to other witnesses, he was tackled by a bystander and taken into custody.

Keith Olbermann reports:

Death total at six. 19 total shot.

Update: Sadly, Reuters and NPR report that 4 to 6 others are dead. Among the dead are Judge John Roll and a nine year old child.

Update: MSNBC now reports that a surgeon is on scene and that Giffords is alive but in critical condition.

3:11 PM ET Giffords’ Father:

From The New York Post:

Her father Spencer Giffords, 75, wept when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies. “Yeah,” he told The Post. “The whole tea party.”

3:50 PM ET Giffords ‘Expected To Pull Through’?

MSNBC reports that Tucson’s deputy city manager says that doctors expect Rep. Giffords to pull through.

Via Brian Stelter, state senator Linda Lopez tells Fox, “We just heard that [Giffords] is responding to commands. She made it through surgery.”

4:03 PM ET Surgeon ‘Very Optimistic’ About Giffords, One Dead, Five Critical

A surgeon is “very optimistic” about Rep. Giffords. He adds that she was shot in the head “through and through.”

“We cannot tell what kind of recovery but I’m about as optimistic as it can get in this situation.”

He also says that there are 10 patients from the shooting, one has died, five are in critical condition. The dead patient was a child.

Ms. Giffords shooting has far reaching ripples as her husband, Mark is scheduled to command the last flight of the space shuttle Endeavour. It is unknown if he will change places with the Commander of the last flight of Atlantis in order to be with his wife. I suspect she would want him to go.


About Mr. Universe

Mr. Universe is a musician/songwriter and an ex-patriot of the south. He currently lives and teaches at a University in the Pacific Northwest. He is a long distance hiker who has hiked the Appalachian Trail and the Pacific Crest Trail. He is also an author and woodworker. An outspoken political voice, he takes a decidedly liberal stance in politics.
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146 Responses to Democrat Gabrielle Giffords and Others Shot in AZ.

  1. Monotreme says:

    Thanks, Mr. U. I was just about to post this. I heard it first on Twitter but you know how those rumors are.

    Sadly, it appears the rumors are true.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/politics/

    I pray for Rep. Giffords and her family.

  2. mclever says:

    Here is the link to the Yahoo updates on this story:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_usa_shooting_congresswoman

    According to the Reuters report, she was shot point blank in the head.

    Prayers and hopes for her recovery and for her family during this time.

  3. shiloh says:

    May she rest in peace/condolences to her family and friends and I’ll apply the golden rule to everything else I want to say.

  4. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    I believe that Rep Giffords district was on Palin’s famous “Target List” from during the campaign period. If someone has different information, please correct me.

    Perhaps an attorney on this list could give us information on the merits of possible civil action that might determine the degree of responsibility that may apply to Ms Palin under such circumstances. I recognize that it would be treading on a fragile legal thread, but the pro- arguments would be interesting.

    Prayers go out to the Congresswoman, the others, killed and injured and their families.

  5. shiloh says:

    The response? Increased security for Speaker boehner !@#$%^&*

    MSNBC just said Giffords is still alive, but in critical condition!

  6. Mainer says:

    Yeah I suspect Mr. Boehner will not be flying commercial any more just like Ms. Pelosi didn’t when the Secret Service said no.

    Not sure that Palin would have any culpability but there was a bunch of talk in the region about Second Amendment type action other than in Nevada. Look for more of this rather than less. I’m almost afraid to see the reaction on freeper.

  7. Mr. Universe says:

    We’ll send filistro in to Freeperland. She seems to be able to stomach it.

  8. shiloh says:

    Politico comment:

    Was this congresswoman one of palin’s sights on her advertisement?

    http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/sarahpac_0.jpg ~ ‘nuf said!

  9. shiloh says:

    Yes ~ ‘nuf said!

  10. fopplssiegeparty says:

    Is the revolution starting already?

  11. Mainer says:

    For Freeperville it seems pretty controlled so far. I do note a strong desire that the assailant be latino or muslim (I kid you not) and the worry that it will be pinned on teapers or their ilk.

  12. Bart DePalma says:

    Her father Spencer Giffords, 75, wept when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies. ”Yeah,” he told The Post. “The whole tea party.”

    I won’t respond in kind.

    Bless your daughter and your family, sir.

    From the Tea Party.

  13. Todd Dugdale says:

    Wingnut responses (outside of Free Republic) so far are uniformly ones of condemnation.
    Mixed with that are concerns that this will lead to increased gun restrictions, and a multitude of creatively brutal ways to execute the assassin.

    Nobody is crazy or hateful enough to spin this guy into a hero, but the Right will have to be extremely careful how they handle this. Remember, the wingnut response to the Tides Foundation attacker was “Obama is driving people crazy”, which did not go over well.

    I am astonished at the cool-headed bravery of the individual who tackled this killer.

    Even if the assassin turns out to be a non-wingnut, no amount of hand-wringing from the Right will effectively counter the growing impression that a very ugly and frightening line has been crossed here. There is no doubt in my mind that this horrific act will reverberate throughout the 2012 campaign. Every candidate appearance will be over-shadowed by the threat of violence, which will not allow this day to slip into the “memory hole” easily.

    This is simply terrorism. Nothing good or constructive can come of this.

  14. shortchain says:

    Bart,

    Your delusion that you are a spokesman for the teaparty is just pathetic.

    But let’s just hold our horses and wait for clarification, keep the victims in our thoughts, and hope that everyone survives.

  15. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Bart said: “Her father Spencer Giffords, 75, wept when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies. ”Yeah,” he told The Post. “The whole tea party.”

    I won’t respond in kind.

    You do have a tiny bit of wisdom left.

    Rumor has it that Palin’s website no longer has the “Target Map” on it.

    Throw Sharon Angle in on that civil case for degree of responsibility.

  16. Mr. Universe says:

    Agree completely with Todd. Wish the guy had been able to tackle him sooner but it only takes a matter of seconds to unload a fourteen round clip. Guy deserves some media praise for sure.

    Nothing good will come of this. It is indeed a stain on our democracy. The man didn’t just attack one person. He attacked a whole constituency.

  17. shiloh says:

    Congresswoman Gifford expected to survive surgery! :)))

  18. Mr. Universe says:

    Quotes from Freeperland:

    I think we all know who the MSM will blame for this.

    This makes NO sense. Why shoot a Congress Critter. Evil, Dumb, and Stupid.
    God help us if this shooter can be tied to TPM.

    The left is pissed at this Rep. for defecting and voting against Pelousy and some of her stupid ideas.

    whoever it was, this will result in a call for ‘more gun control’.

    Blue dog.
    I’m hazard a guess that the left sacrificed her to forward their agenda.
    But that’s just me and my tinfoil.

    or they need a martyr.

    Anything is possible and I don’t discount the tin foil yet. Generally, acts of political violence are more associated with the left than the right. These people just go bat shit crazy and can’t hold it in anymore.

    Prayers up for all. Awful.
    My first thought on motive? The updated Weather Underground/SDS/assorted other bomb-throwing radicals aiming to pin it on the tea party.

  19. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    It’s been reported that Federal Arizona Chief Judge John Roll was killed in todays shooting. Judge Roll had been on the Federal bench since 1991, having been nominated by President George H W Bush.

    One of the dead, according to the hospital spokesman, was a “young child”, age 9.

    An attack on democracy and America as free society.

    This why words matter. And why the irresponsible use of words matter.
    When people as Sharon Angle talk about “2nd Amendment remedies” to fix Congress.
    When Palin uses bullseyes and crosshairs to “target” Congresspeople.
    When an attorney, and officer of the court, uses “murder” in reference to abortion.

    Some people don’t play the game by the rules and don’t understand they are just words. Those who use words in this context bear a degree of responsibility, maybe not legally, but morally, when another person acts out.

  20. fopplssiegeparty says:

    Mr. U: Man are they out to lunch at Freeperville, thanks a million for venturing a visit. You are a better man than I.

  21. Todd Dugdale says:

    Just heard on NPR that a child is among the confirmed dead.

    TPM also notes that a federal judge is among the dead. This judge was the recipient of numerous death threats, some of which were made on the air during a wingnut talk radio show.

    NPR also announced the assassin’s name.

  22. dcpetterson says:

    I’m having flashbacks to 1963 and 1968. Is political assassination back in vogue?

    If something good can come of this, let it be a realization that the hateful and destructive turn our political discourse has taken needs to stop.

  23. Before everyone jumps to conclusions, I’d like to remind you that the first discussions after the Oklahoma City bombing were about Muslim terrorists. We don’t yet know enough about why the gunman did what he did. I have little doubt that we will find out over the next week.

  24. Mr. Universe says:

    Gunman’s MySpace page was taken down pretty quickly. I’ll continue to monitor.

  25. Monotreme says:

    CNN reporting the suspect is a 22 year old white male.

  26. Todd Dugdale says:

    It might very well turn out that the judge was the intended target.

    While filistro keeps an eye on the “freepers”, my interest has been in the “sovereign citizen” movement for some years now. Federal judges are prime targets for the “sovereigns”, and several have openly claimed that the recent election was a validation of their movement and the “excision of judicial corruption”.

    Just sheer speculation at this point, however.

  27. Monotreme says:

    @Todd:

    Reports are that Congresswoman Giffords was shot point-blank in the head. The surgeon describes it as a “through and through”. There are no good head wounds, but if it’s a head wound, this is the best type in terms of survival.

  28. Todd Dugdale says:

    Monotreme,
    the link you posted at politico sets off several “sovereign” alarm bells in my mind.

  29. Mr. Universe says:

    @foppsie

    I didn’t stay too long at Freeperland. Those were off the first page of comments. Usually filistro does the anthropological dirty work but she’s pulling one armed bandits at a casino somewhere.

  30. Mainer says:

    Regardless of how this turns out from this point going on we are about to see not a sad day in our country and one ofour states but in the lives of so many familys.

    But as we now know the individual wasn’t a latino hit man and most likely not a Muslim (though on some sites that is still being held out as a hope) where does that leave us and unfortunatly those that are now encharged with sorting all of this out?

    Well as the right is by some already trying to sell the concept that this individual was a left wing plant sent forth to discredit the right this should go well. Yup I’m pretty sure Obama and Pelosi are behind it because the Rep voted against Pelosi……one can’t make this stuff up.

    Put yourselves in the shoes of the officers that have to search through the shooters life and belongings. If they don’t find any thing that connects this Jarrod clown to right wing extreamism they will bevillified for covering it up or destroying evidence. If they find connections or inspiration having come from the sovereigns, teapers, Palin or any thing on the right they will be accued of having planted it. You can pretty much figure that fom this moment on their lives are ruined either way, collateral damage I guess.

    If the shooter is found to have been one of the 4 identified as having made death threats or connections to those that made the threats against the judge and then having the Federal Marshalls convince the judge not o press charges their careers are doomed.

    You can pretty much assume that after the teaparty fiascos that constituent meetings became on health care, other examples of threats and actions aimed at various congressional offices, congress people and their staffers that the open political system we have always enjoyed is going to now be much less open and accessable. Congressional offices will have to be moved into Federal buildings behind restrictive security, public meetings with candidates will be less open and sponteneous. Every threat will have to be investigated and officers provided for protestion dilluting our efforts to protect ourselves from various other extreamists.

    And the biggest loser will be what little trust still existed between the two political extreams in this country. All one has to do is follow some of the vile postings all over the net. We are entering a very very dangerous time.

    Oh and I had this little gem of a thought. Let us hope that th Rep is able to resume her duties. A real if not very realistic hope. So the govenor of the state has to replace her……and we all know she is not going to play politics with some thing this explosive…. yeah right so she replaces the Rep with a righty and maybe even the righty that Ms. Giffords beat. At that point Sharon Angles second amendment sollutions will have come to pass and congress people all over had best get bullet proof cars, vests and a protective goon squad.

    No matter what happens from here on out it isn’t going to be good.

  31. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Mainer,

    The Gov. will NOT replace her if that were to be necessary. By the Constitution, a House member is only replaced by a special election at a time called by the Gov.

  32. Mainer says:

    Yes I realized that after I posted Max….D U H. …….Ok but only one sort of less issue. I’m guessing that in a special election Rove and company would pull out all the stops to see her replaced by one of their own so they would still win at the expense of the system. How ever it is done I will predict her replacement will be right wing. Unless the people of the area have a sense of fairplay which is doubtful at this pont in most corners of the country. It will simply be seen as an opportunity to put another regressive in DC.

  33. shiloh says:

    Few thoughts:

    Regardless of all the minutiae crap comin’ out in the past hours re: the Loughner’s politics:

    Judge Roll in 2009, faced death threats after presiding over a $32 million civil-rights lawsuit. The lawsuit was filed by illegal immigrants against an Arizona rancher. After Judge Roll ruled the case would be certified, threats came from talk-radio shows which fueled controversy and spurred audiences into making threats against the judge

    and of course, Giffords is a Democrat! who has had death threats previously.

    btw, Politico comments are about as bad as freeperville ie conservative scum are conservative scum no matter where they post, eh.

    >

    This is all part of AZ er Jan Brewer, America’s sweetheart, new tourist ad campaign. Indeed, how did AZ get soooo damn lucky …

    Obama will have something new to talk about in his State of the Union address. You bet’cha!

    Will Reps er teabaggers now act like (((adults !!!))) during said State of the Union ~ hell no!

    and so it goes …

  34. Todd Dugdale says:

    Mainer wrote:
    No matter what happens from here on out it isn’t going to be good.

    Seconded. I commend your objective take on the matter.

    Realistically, however, even if this Jared guy was found with orders signed by Palin, Beck, and Boehner the Right would still dismiss him as a plant. The Right simply refuses to engage in introspection. This is how McVeigh is now dismissed as a lunatic, rather than as the product of decades of militia and fundamentalist Christian indoctrination that somehow managed to paint the Right as heroes waiting for the signal to revolt. The Right has a core belief that they are the “good guys” – they can do no wrong. If someone on the Right happens to do something “wrong”, then they are not part of the Right. It’s airtight circular reasoning.

    So, while the Right is a lost cause, the impact of this event will be felt on those outside of its delusional bubble reality. More attention will be paid to the rhetoric of the Right by Independents and other swing voters. They will be less inclined to overlook statements made by the “loose cannons”. It will be more difficult for conservatives to generate attention through “over-the-top” remarks, and those that do will find the media negatively capitalising on it.

    The Right thinks it can minimise this by denouncing Loughner. Knowing that there are real schizoids with very real Glocks out there, is it wise to encourage them with rhetoric that is likely to make such violence sound heroic?

    Every campaign appearance for House and Senate races, not to mention the Presidential race, will have heightened security. The media will comment on it. The memory will be reinforced. It will not be a fear of foreigners, but of “us”.

  35. Monotreme says:

    @Todd,

    Shortchain introduced me to the “no true Scotsman” logical fallacy. You’ll never guess which one of our regular posters was engaged in it at the time.

  36. Bart DePalma says:

    Todd:

    Can you possibly be any more of a partisan asswipe? There is a mass murder and the first thing you can think of to do is try to turn it into an indictment of your political opponents. The Congresswoman’s father has grief as an excuse, you have no excuse.

    Loughner is a Class A lunatic anarchist. You can catch some of his rants here:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/01/08/breaking-congresswoman-five-others-shot-in-tucson-az/

    I won’t hold my breath for your apology.

  37. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Bart said: “_______”, “I won’t hold my breath for your apology.

    Please do.

    Please, please, please.

    I’ll repeat for YOUR benefit:

    An attack on democracy and America as free society.

    This why words matter. And why the irresponsible use of words matter.
    When people as Sharon Angle talk about “2nd Amendment remedies” to fix Congress.
    When Palin uses bullseyes and crosshairs to “target” Congresspeople.
    When an attorney, and officer of the court, uses “murder” in reference to abortion.

    Some people don’t play the game by the rules and don’t understand they are just words. Those who use words in this context bear a degree of responsibility, maybe not legally, but morally, when another person acts out.

  38. Bart DePalma says:

    Apparently, Loughner at one time was “left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.”

    http://mobile.twitter.com/caitieparker#22979901883682816

    Barack Obama and the director of the movie 2012 must be at fault for turning Loughner into a psychopath. If those damn leftists could be more introspective, this never would have happened!

  39. Todd Dugdale says:

    BDP wrote:
    Can you possibly be any more of a partisan asswipe?

    Yes, I can. I prefer to tone it down, though.

    Loughner is a Class A lunatic anarchist.

    Knowing that people like Loughner exist, is it wise to engage in incendiary rhetoric that would make an attack such as the one today sound heroic to a “Class A lunatic anarchist”?

    I won’t hold my breath for your apology.

    Whatever. You can hold your breath as long as you like. Maybe that worked on your mommy, but it’s a long-shot strategy with me, I assure you.

  40. Monotreme says:

    No true Scotsman would be a schizophrenic.

  41. Todd Dugdale says:

    Monotreme wrote:
    No true Scotsman would be a schizophrenic.

    I’ve heard of all of our commenters on the Right use that particular fallacy.

    I recall that Roeder and McVeigh could not be considered Christian terrorists, because they were not true Christians.

    I also recall learning that any conservative who does something non-conservative is not a true conservative.

  42. dcpetterson says:

    Apparently, Loughner at one time was “left wing, quite liberal.

    At one time, Ronald Reagan was a Democrat. What’s your point?

    Did Loughner murder anyone while he self-identified as “left wing, quite liberal”?

  43. shortchain says:

    I see. So a person, now in his mid-twenties, was, in his late teens, “liberal” — according to a friend whose ability to judge this we have no way of gauging, and whose recent knowledge of the individual in question isn’t clear.

    And that’s enough for Bart (he never investigates beyond finding something that confirms his bias). The guy clearly could not have, in the interim, started listening to all the anti-government hate-speech, for example.

    Let’s not forget that Irving Kristol was a Trotskyite before becoming a conservative. These things happen.

    It’s too soon to assign, to any political persuasion, the blame for this tragedy. The only thing we can be sure of is that the guy came unhinged. Whether he then swung to the left or to the right, or even top to bottom, is going to take time to sort out and information we don’t possess.

    Meanwhile, what’s clear is that his was a failure of our ability to keep guns out of the hands of lunatics and domestic terrorists. It’s also clear that the incitement to violence and demonization that the right has engaged in over the last several years has not helped.

  44. Todd Dugdale says:

    BDP wrote:
    Loughner at one time was “left wing, quite liberal

    Yet he was also in the military, and we "know" that left-wing liberals don't join the military.

    Actually, this just adds to my impression that Loughner was a "sovereign". A lot of the sovereign rhetoric can appear 'left-wing' under cursory examination. It's only when you look at the underlying Constitutional craziness and the Wild West mentality that you come to realise that this entire phenomenon is a creature of the Right.
    Your use of the term "anarchist" is also supportive evidence. The sovereign believes that are, literally, sovereign – like a King. The government is an illegitimate authority and can be either ignored or fought, depending on one's whim. We are all Kings, in the sovereign view, which sounds like an anarchist.

    Still, I admit that it's too early to come to any conclusions about Loughner's motives.
    I've expressed the possible consequences for the Right, regardless of the gunman's affiliation. You take issue with my portrayal of how the Right would react if it were determined that Loughner is clearly "one of yours". I think it was spot on.
    Speculating on the reaction, and claiming that speculation to be the truth are two entirely different things.

  45. Todd Dugdale says:

    Actually, I was wrong about Loughner being in the military. He was rejected.

  46. Monotreme says:

    There is a press conference going on as I type this where Sheriff Dupnik (obviously not from anywhere near Scotland) is taking those engaging in right-wing vitriol and hate speech to the woodshed.

  47. Monotreme says:

    “It’s really easy in the context of what happened this morning to look back and say, I don’t know if this [Palin map with crosshairs] was such a bright idea.”

    — Patrick Beck, president of the Mohave County Tea Party

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/08/AR2011010803652.html?hpid=topnews

  48. Mr. Universe says:

    Plenty of time to figure out the motives behind this. Right now I agree with the President; it’s time to come together as a nation on this tragedy.

  49. It was really easy to see well before the context of what happened to say that Palin’s map with crosshairs wasn’t such a bright idea. Several people at this very site did so at the time. Maybe Patrick Beck should be reading 538 Refugees…

  50. GROG says:

    Didn’t take long for lefwing blogs like this one to politicize this national tragedy. It’s disgraceful. God bless the Congresswoman and the other victims.

  51. Todd Dugdale says:

    NYT is saying here that there is a second suspect.

    Sheriff Clarence W. Dupnik said:
    We are not convinced that he acted alone. There is some reason to believe that he came to this location with another individual. That the other individual may in some way be involved.

    The sheriff later said that the second suspect was a white man in his 50s.

    Maybe Loughner was just an unstable, easily-manipulatable patsy for someone with an agenda?

    Also, this is commendable:

    The Republican majority in the House of Representatives has delayed all pending votes on legislation — including one to repeal President Obama’s health care legislation — that had been scheduled for next week.

  52. clmbusboy1 says:

    I don’t get why people from any side would blame the other side for this action. I could care less if he is found with posters of Palin on his walls or several autographs of Keith Olbermann in his pocket. Why can’t we simply hold this jerk responsible for his own actions and leave it at that. Why the need to find someone else to blame.

    If someone commits a terrorist act, all Muslims are blamed. If a radical burns down an abortion clinic, all Christians are blamed. Perhaps the people that should be held accountable are the ones that actually break the law.

    If anything, at least wait till all the facts come out before laying blame anywhere, outside of the shooter himself.

    I pray that Rep. Giffords makes a full recovery. She is a classy woman who should be commended for her public service.

  53. Monotreme says:

    Just saw this from a Southern Law Center commentator. Looks like Todd was right about the “Sovereign” thread running through this young man’s rants.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller

  54. shiloh says:

    Barted ~ Can you possibly be any more of a partisan asswipe?

    Bartles, the Rep party ie ailes/atwater/turdblossom is the party of (((hate/fear mongering/race baiting/misinformation))) for the past (40+) years as that’s how they (you) roll!

    Repeating:

    the Rep party is the party of (((hate/fear mongering/race baiting/misinformation))) the past (40+) years!

    Timothy McVeigh was a right-wing nut job, much like Bartles ie a tar/feather/rails teabagger lol and coincidentally, they were/are both U.S. Army veterans. 😛

    and you’d be surprised, that left-wing liberals don’t join the military. how many die hard liberals, like myself 😀 joined and are currently serving in the military. The horror!

    btw, there are Gays currently serving and dying for America …

    >

    Did I mention ~ the Rep party is the party of (((hate/fear mongering/race baiting/misinformation))) the past (40+) years!

    Just wanted to make sure.

    >

    Bart do you never get tired of being an asshole? and grog, you were excused from 538 rational/intelligent conversation some time ago …

    take care

  55. Monotreme says:

    GROG,

    I’m sorry you feel that way, but filistro and others on this blog (and the precursor fivethirtyeight blog) have been quite clear that this kind of rhetoric will inevitably lead to violence in susceptible, mentally unstable individuals.

    You can call this “politicizing tragedy” if you wish, but I think it’s human nature for people to try and figure out the “why” of such a horrific event.

  56. Mr. Universe says:

    @clmbusboy

    Many of us have been alarmed by the language recently used by the right. It’s inflammatory, incendiary, provocative, and at times treasonous. I get that the right is disatisfied with the state of things. But when you whip people into a frenzy based upon religion (as in the Tiller murder) or patriotism (as Palin, Angle, and others have been doing) you run the risk of empowering some people out there that might…well, not be so grounded as to understand that it is rhetoric. In fact, it’s harmful rhetoric. It’s provocation.

    I notice that Sharron Angle has been remarkably silent regarding her ‘second amendment remedies’ statements. And rightly so. If your’re going to bang the drums of revolution, you should probably be prepared for the fallout.

  57. Mr. Universe says:

    @GROG

    Nobody yet knows the motivations behind this. I think we can all agree that it is tragic and uneccessary regardless of the motives.

  58. Monotreme says:

    I also find myself agreeing strongly and unequivocally with Speaker Boehner’s public statement. I like it so much I’m going to reproduce it here.

    I am horrified by the senseless attack on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and members of her staff. An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve. Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society. Our prayers are with Congresswoman Giffords, her staff, all who were injured, and their families. This is a sad day for our country.
    — Speaker of the House John Boehner

    http://speaker.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=219343

  59. shiloh says:

    Monotreme, boehner like mama grizzly has everything written for him by ghost writers, but, but, but, it’s nice boehner has a rational/intelligent speechwriter on his staff …

  60. clmbusboy1 says:

    @Mr. Universe

    I hear you. You can find many many examples to justify your anger at the right. Just as many on the right can find examples to be angered by people on the left. But I fall in the camp that says two wrongs don’t make a right.

    What you are saying is, because people have angered you by their words, it’s fair for you to be equally as vicious in your verbal attacks.

    I certainly do not think Sharron Angle should have made the comments she did. But even if she got on the phone and called this guy, it’s the shooter that should bare total responsibility.

    It would be like me shooting someone to prove a point then using Manchin’s political ad as my defense, saying, “Hey, a sitting Governor used a rifle to prove a point, why can’t I.” Ridiculous.

    I’m guessing you’d be very incensed if you read a post that said something along the lines of “It must be some radical lefty that shot her for voting against Rep. Pelosi for speaker.” Crazy talk, I agree.

  61. GROG says:

    Mono,

    There’s just as much vitriol and rhetoric from the left as there is from the right in this country. Your side has Arikia Millikan, Keith Olbermann, Jon Stewart, Rachel Maddow, etc, etc. Please don’t pretend the left is any less contentious than the right.

    See the comments above from cbusboy. This is one 22 year old nut job. He’s not representative of anybody. Just like a few Muslim terrorists are not representative of all Muslims.

  62. dcpetterson says:

    When the political discourse includes incitements to violence, and glorification of violence, why is there surprise that violence occurs?

    Political rhetoric for the last few years has increasingly included statements and symbolism of revolution, secession, watering the nation with the blood of tyrants and patriots. It is sometimes suggested that this rhetoric is overblown and is really no more than advertising hyperbole. But the people using this rhetoric have then said, no, we’d best take it seriously, because if we pass Health Care reform, or keep abortions legal, or dare to enact laws to improve the environment or to rein in the robber barons of the banking industry — if we dare do any of these things, then yes, they say, Second Amendment Remedies may well be invoked.

    We don’t know if the mad gunman in this case agreed with these sentiments. We do know that, for years now, we’ve been warned that such vile rhetoric will inevitably lead to violence. And now, if those who have been using this rhetoric dare to tone it own, their equally mad followers will feel abandoned and betrayed. How will the Teapers react if their darlings in the spotlight begin to condemn the hateful language that has encouraged political violence?

  63. Monotreme says:

    “We need to realize that the rhetoric, and the firing people up and … for example, we’re on Sarah Palin’s ‘targeted’ list, but the thing is, the way she has it depicted, we’re in the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they’ve gotta realize that there are consequences to that action.”
    — Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, March 2010

    http://misterhippity.tumblr.com/

  64. Mr. Universe says:

    @clmbusboy

    I think what I am saying is that with a bullhorn comes some responsibility. When Angle made those statements, she may have thought she was just posturing, but it’s possible she was encouraging someone who was young, impressionable, maybe confused to take action that she may not have really wanted to happen. I suspect she regrets the statements now.

  65. Monotreme says:

    GROG,

    I’m sorry, but that’s just not true. I know you believe it, and I respect your beliefs, but it’s not true.

    I would challenge you to find examples of incitement to violence made by the specific individuals you cite. I would challenge you to find a sheriff who says left wing media incited the violence that happened today.

    Are you honestly saying that the anti-American rhetoric died with the 19 hijackers on September 11, 2001? That we should hold them responsible for their actions as individuals and not condemn the culture of violence (more specifically, Al Qaida training camps and madrassahs) that bred them?

  66. clmbusboy1 says:

    @Mr. Universe.

    Ms. Angle may have regretted her statement moments after she made it or she may never regret it. I don’t know her position on her comments.

    My point is, people, in this case the shooter, should be held accountable for their actions. We may disagree, but I refuse to buy “the devil made me do it” excuse.

    If I get a ticket for speeding, is it GMs fault for producing a car that has the capability of going 140mph. 🙂

  67. Mr. Universe says:

    Here’s another way to look at it. While I may disagree with conservative perspectives, I NEVER call for violence towards those whom I disagree with. I never encourage others to take that course. The hallmark of a democracy is accepting that somebody you disagree with just might be right. To kill someone you disagree with is, regardless of motives is,…not democracy. Certainly it does not absolve the perpetrator of responsibility. But there could be collateral responsibility.

  68. dcpetterson says:

    @clmbusboy1
    My point is, people, in this case the shooter, should be held accountable for their actions. We may disagree, but I refuse to buy “the devil made me do it” excuse.

    I don’t think anyone here would suggest the shooter should be released rather than prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

    Would you object to a movement to tone down the violent rhetoric that has become part of our political discourse, the threats of violence and of armed revolution, and the calls to arming oneself and spilling the blood of patriots and tyrants?

  69. Monotreme says:

    On Nov 4 2010, Sarah Palin tweeted:

    @SarahPalinUSA
    Remember months ago “bullseye” icon used 2 target the 20 Obamacare-lovin’ incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20 (90% success rate;T’aint bad)

  70. clmbusboy1 says:

    @dcpetterson
    Would you object to a movement to tone down the violent rhetoric that has become part of our political discourse, the threats of violence and of armed revolution, and the calls to arming oneself and spilling the blood of patriots and tyrants?

    Abosolutely!! That was exactly what I was attempting to convery in my initial post on this matter. Both sides need to inject more class into political discourse. I was so hoping Jon Stewart’s comments at the early Nov. rally in DC would make a difference.

    For today, the focus should be positive thoughts toward Ms. Giffords and her family. As I said before, I pray she makes a full recovery!

  71. Monotreme says:

    Nate Silver just tweeted this link with a favorable comment. I also endorse the sentiments in the attached article.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/the-cloudy-logic-of-political-shootings/69147/

  72. Monotreme says:

    clmbusboy, you’re a class guy.

  73. dcpetterson says:

    Thank you clmbusboy. We’re cool.

  74. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    I challenge ANYBODY, who wants to talk about this being a left vs. right, “THEY did it, too!” thing, please cite specific examples of a “left-wing” politician, radio or TV commentator using violent metaphors towards the opposition this past election cycle. The only one I can think of in Manchin from WV.

    I have cited Angle, Palin, and an attorney. O’reilly and Beck have also used the legal term “murder” in reference to abortion. Giffords recent GOP opponent used a machine gun in an ad. That’s FIVE from the right side of the equation without using Google.

    Not trying to keep score, but facts are facts, and I give a damn about equal time. The GOP had used fear as one of it’s primary tools since Willie Horton in 1988 and last year was an excellent example.

    So. Lets’ hear about some violent lefties last cycle. . .

  75. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    And I’ll repeat, again, my previous point:

    An attack on democracy and America as free society.

    This why words matter. And why the irresponsible use of words matter.
    When people as Sharon Angle talk about “2nd Amendment remedies” to fix Congress.
    When Palin uses bullseyes and crosshairs to “target” Congresspeople.
    When an attorney, and officer of the court, uses “murder” in reference to abortion.

    Some people don’t play the game by the rules and don’t understand they are just words. Those who use words in this context bear a degree of responsibility, maybe not legally, but morally, when another person acts out.

  76. dcpetterson says:

    @clmbusboy1
    If I get a ticket for speeding, is it GMs fault for producing a car that has the capability of going 140mph.

    🙂 cool example. I’d say no, GM doesn’t get the blame.

    However, if GM had been telling us for years that it is our patriotic duty to drive 140 MPH — and that if you don’t, you’re trying to destroy America — and anyone who disagrees is a traitor — and the most-heard radio commentators agree, and every single day try to encourage “true Americans” to flagrantly break the law — if this also was going on, and then a driver tore through Tuscon at 140 and killed five people, there might be calls for the advertising rhetoric to be toned down. Especially if people had been warning us, for years, that this might happen.

    With freedom of speech comes some responsibility to think about the effect of your speech. After all, people engage in political speech for the purpose of getting a reaction. To then pretend to have no responsibility for the reaction that does occur — especially when that reaction obeys the rhetoric exactly — is hypocritical and dishonest at best.

  77. shiloh says:

    Again grog, it was determined some time ago you were 538’s king of inane/untrue generalizations, lacking any specific facts/citations to back up your continual winger nonsense.

    So sleep easy knowing the generalization crown is yours to keep!

    take care

  78. shiloh says:

    If I get a ticket for speeding, is it GMs fault for producing a car that has the capability of going 140mph.

    petty sure this was sarcasm …

    carry on

  79. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    GROG,

    Please cite us some SPECIFIC examples where “Arikia Millikan, Keith Olbermann, Jon Stewart, (or) Rachel Maddow” promoted violence or used violent metaphors against folks on the right.

    Put up or shut up! Show you cards, you’ve been called.

    I want to hear about these examples so I can nail lefties as well. Show me.

  80. Chris Rich says:

    It’s never a good idea to whip up a bloody frenzy in a nation full chock of easily obtained guns and disturbed people further whiplashed by despair from a prolonged and intractable recession.

    The culprit seems to have gotten some help by a 50 year old male person of interest. I have a feeling he wasn’t motivated to do this on his own, and he still lived with his parents.

    I also have a feeling there will be more of these lethal outbursts over the coming year as the recession clings and the incapacities of all the newly elected ‘winners’ become more painfully obvious.

    While we await the unraveling we have more to mourn and crossed fingers for survivors.

    The Daily Dish live blogged this today and a reader in Arizona contributed this.

    “I am standing in the aisle at Costco when I found out my Congresswomen, Gabrielle Giffords, has been shot dead up on the north side.

    While I’m scrambling with my phone, two couples in front of me are talking about it and suddenly I hear one of the women say, “Well, that’s to be expected when you’re so liberal.”

    And the other woman says, “Ohh, so we get to appoint a Republican?”

    I did not trust myself to speak. I’m a Soldier. Please remind me what country I am fighting for? At least seven people are dead. She happens to be the only member of Congress married to an active duty military — he’s a Navy officer serving as an astronaut”

  81. Mainer says:

    You know I am fascinated by the accounts and results of this shooting. From various sources it appears that in a very short span of time we are to beleive a troubled young person calmly went up to a group of people numbering about 2 dozen that were spread over a small area and fired some 15 rounds that struck some 19 people killing 6 and seriously wounding 6 or 7. You have to figure that after the first couple of rounds you had people ducking, covering, screaming and running like a bunch of hens with a weasle in their midst. But this kid was simply deadly.

    It will be interesting to see what is learned of him. Did he have some knowing person deliver him to the event. Was it his idea or was he coached? Where did he learn to shoot like that? He is said to have still had ammo when taken down. Had he reloaded? Did he have avery extended magazine? If so how had he concealed it as he approached? If he had simply picked up a ride how had he concealed the weapon? There is a bunch we don’t know yet. I’m not ready to start the conspiracy chant but some thing doesn’t smell quite right here.

  82. Chris Rich says:

    That’s what I’m scanning for now. We have a goofy socially awkward kid crackpot. Ms Gifford was at a prior town hall event where an elderly 65 year old crackpot dropped a loaded pistol on the floor.

    His politics, if you could call a weird mish mash of Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto with a dash of Tolkein and Swift, politics, were some stew of lonely stoner delusions ineptly expressed. He had some commonalities with Ron Paul crackpots.

    There is a cornpone crackpot strain there. It’s unusual. Evan Meacham anyone?

    The kid doesn’t seem like someone who could be trusted with a wet match but a cornpone crackpot cabal could find fertile soil to sprout some ghastly thing there and there is a lot of meth around.

  83. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Well, a couple of hours and no examples of left wingers with violent messaging.

    GROG ain’t put up, yet either. Could he have been lying?

    Waiting . . .

  84. shiloh says:

    And the other woman says, “Ohh, so we get to appoint a Republican?”

    This is what Bartles was hoping for as again, Reps er teabaggers like Bart don’t want to govern, rather conquer and rule …

  85. clmbusboy1 says:

    @Max
    Please cite us some SPECIFIC examples where “Arikia Millikan, Keith Olbermann, Jon Stewart, (or) Rachel Maddow” promoted violence or used violent metaphors against folks on the right.
    Put up or shut up! Show you cards, you’ve been called.
    I want to hear about these examples so I can nail lefties as well. Show me.

    It’s not any of the four names you mentioned, but Dylan Ratigan allowed 6 minutes to a radical on his show to promote the left “to take up arms.”

    http://www.examiner.com/libertarian-in-national/on-msnbc-radical-cartoonist-ted-rall-rallies-left-to-take-up-arms

    I assume you’ll be emailing Ratigan asking him why he’d allow this dialogue on his show.

  86. shiloh says:

    Let the record show:

    clmbusboy1 could not cite any Arikia Millikan, Keith Olbermann, Jon Stewart, (or) Rachel Maddow references that promoted violence.

    So at best, if true, his post was a deflection to Ratigan, a very low rated MSNBC show …

    but, but, but “we” now need to start a thread re: responsible free speech and who gets to define exactly what that is as regards to the 1st Amendment.

  87. shiloh says:

    breaking …

    America elected its 1st bi-racial, African/American yada, yada, yada president in a country which has a 300/400 year history of racial oppression er many are still fighting the American Civil War so you do the math …

    ie all bets are off!

  88. clmbusboy1 says:

    @shiloh
    While you are correct that I did not show any of the four names mentioned, I also wasn’t trying.

    In a followup post, Max said, “Well, a couple of hours and no examples of left wingers with violent messaging.”

    I was simply proving that stupidy comes from each side. He said there were “no” examples. I find it ridiculous to believe you cannot find a moron on either side of almost any debate.

    I shouldn’t say there is no way, but I’ll say it anyway. I gotta believe there is no way you’ll find any such example from Stewart. I’m a huge fan of his. He is one of the loudest voices preaching just the opposite…to show respect to all sides in a debate. If more people would heed his advice, we’d have a lot less anger from each side.

  89. Monotreme says:

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/08/20110108arizona-congresswoman-gabrielle-giffords-shooting-victims-brk08-ON.html

    The death of a 9 year old girl is always sad. The death of a 9 year old girl under these circumstances is beyond tragic.

    I don’t know much about firearms (another discussion for another day), but is there any justification (in terms of sport, hunting, or self-defense) for the existence of a 30 round clip? Reports say that’s what was loaded on the madman’s 9 mm Glock.

  90. Monotreme says:

    clmbusboy, I agree, Ted Rall is a bit crazy. I read his stuff, but it’s pretty far out there. I deplore and repudiate his call to arms.

  91. shiloh says:

    clmbusboy1

    Obviously I agree both sides say stupid crap, but I firmly believe w/Reps it’s a cottage industry of hate/fear/misinformation ie its their political m.o. Again, how they roll.

    Hey, for the past 40+ years Reps have just been better than Dems at dividing the country ie ailes/atwater/turdblossom and this has helped them win many presidential elections, rinse, lather, repeat although again I will agree Dems have nominated some god awful presidential candidates during this time period also … I digress.

    You may disagree, fine, we’ll just have to disagree …

    America, love it or leave it! ~ You’re either w/us or against us! etc.

    This is why the Dems nominating an African/American and America electing Obama president drives wingers totally bat shit crazy ie the Reps, as a rule, firmly believe w/every fiber of their being they should never lose a presidential election regardless, let alone to a Barack Hussein Obama! Gasp!

    take care

  92. clmbusboy1 says:

    @monotreme
    I don’t know much about firearms (another discussion for another day), but is there any justification (in terms of sport, hunting, or self-defense) for the existence of a 30 round clip? Reports say that’s what was loaded on the madman’s 9 mm Glock.

    Like you, I know little about firearms. My initial reaction was, with so many victims, it would have to be an automatic weapon, which I believe are illegal correct?
    I don’t know if the particular weapon was illegal or not. I totally agree that there is no need for the existence of that weapon in the circumstances you cite.

    The problem is, making them illegal would likely not prevent situations such as this. Prohibition didn’t stop the production of alcohol. Cocaine isn’t legal, but I know where to get some if I so choose.

  93. clmbusboy1,

    My initial reaction was, with so many victims, it would have to be an automatic weapon, which I believe are illegal correct?

    More likely a semiautomatic, which is legal. A good shot doesn’t need full auto. In fact, full auto would be a disadvantage to the shooter in that situation.

  94. Mainer says:

    No guys the weapon in question if it was a Glock semi auto pistol or one like it is not illegal if the individual is of age and not a convicted felon or otherwise unsuited. Nor would the purchase of a 30 round extended magazine. To answer an earlier question such a magazine has little sport, military, police or home defense use. But they are out there and gun nuts love em. My magazine is bigger than your magazine kind of thing.

    But, I can assure you that a Glock with a 30 round mag is not a very concealable weapon in a warm sunny area. Around here this time of year one could conceal a howitzer under the bulky clothes we wear but by the looks there today it was warm sunny and shirt sleave weather.

    I’m still saying that kid had pacticed before this day and not just a little. Remember that clown at the Florida school board meeting a short while ago? He burned of 4 or 5 rounds from nearly point blank range of people that were seated and only put holes in a desk and a wall. Today we have a reported 15 shots that all hit with maybe a dozen of them being on target well enough to kill or seriously wound. Either the kid is one of the best shots in Arizona, very well practiced, or deadly lucky beyond belief. And most likely after the first couple of shots he was shooting at moving targets. Close range isn’t the help you might think in a rapid fire close range group of targets.

    He obviously got some pass through hits along the way as well. Most likely those came early on while people were a little more bunched but I’m wondering what he was using for ammo. Ball ammo would explain more pass through hits but wouldn’t tend to explain the number of what would seem based on what we know now for single round killing or seriously wounding shots. The investigation of this will be interesting.

  95. Monotreme says:

    Yes, the reports I saw had it as a semi-automatic. Forgot to mention that, sorry.

    Mainer, you make a great point. I remember seeing a graphic in the NYT Sunday Week in Review (I can look it up if anyone’s interested) that showed only about 30% of shots fired by the NYPD — a well-trained and -equipped professional force — actually hit their targets. Even at point-blank range, the number only went up to 50% of so.

    If a 30-round clip is legal under the Second Amendment, I look forward to purchasing a 120 mm mortar for home defense. As we live on the side of a hill, it should be handy.

  96. Mr. Universe says:

    Semi-automatic. Must have had an extended clip. Most 9mm have a 14 round clip. He could have reloaded but I doubt it. Fortunately, he appears to not have used hollow points. May have saved some lives.

  97. Chris Rich says:

    The reflexive ‘they do it too’ routine that the right trots out in times like these is marked by a movement in posturing from their usual baritone bellowing to a more soprano shrillness.

    The Left has its boisterous buffoon collection and shrillness galore at things like Firedog but violent rabble rousing hasn’t been our style since the weathermen. The right, more than anything really really despises ridicule and snark. They can’t handle getting belittled either and that is what drives them crazy about people like Stewart.

    Face it at the end of the day, they are not that good at being deliberately funny.. they suck at it. They are often accidentally funny, most often when they are on some soapbox with teabags dangling off some crappy costume tricorn made in China.

    Even snark attempts are pitiful as Bart readily proves with nearly every post. They are too busy doing the grim hair shirt thing when it isn’t priggishness or some other glorified stuffy dolt pose.

    Seen through the prism of their grim world, Olbermann bellowing is probably genuinely threatening, Maddow is distant and stern with many a scolding but that Stewart guy… he’s their worst nightmare. A lefty Don Rickles offspring with a dash of John Cleese tossed in.

  98. Monotreme says:

    Here’s the report I mentioned. Apparently, the police’s “hit ratio” is about 30% nationwide.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html

  99. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    OK. Good morning all. May today be better than yesterday.

    A couple of things.

    1, The gun
    Reports were that it is a 9mm Glock. That makes it more than likely a Glock 19. Normal mag is 10 rds, but 15 rd mags are readily available. Glock 19’s sell for around USD500. A 30 rd mag can be bought on the aftermarket. I wouldn’t necessarily go with that theory though. With a 2nd mag in my hand, I can swap mags in my Beretta in less than a second. Studies show it takes TRAINED persons from 2-5 seconds to react to gunfire, untrained from 5-10 seconds. (What? What IS that? Is that fireworks? No, Is he for real? RUN!) 30 rounds, with a mag change for someone how has practiced, can be fired in about 15 seconds. Particularly if you’re not really taking time to aim and just firing “indiscriminately” as per the reports. And yes, some injuries were probably caused by pass throughs. My guess was that the ammo was target loads, possibly copper jacketed. That would limit expansion and rapid slowing of the bullet and increase the likelihood of pass throughs. Many of us who carry for personal protection use ammo such as Speer Gold Dots, semi-jacketed, hollow points, designed for maximum stopping power and minimal penetration. Nasty business, they. I truly hope I never have to use them.

    2, STILL no response from GROG about his “list”, nor has anyone else answered the challenge for a lefty politician, radio or TV commentator using violent or shooting metaphors.
    The only effort came from clmbusboy1. That effort amounted to an article from a right-leaning source that had no additional link to the actual Ratigan-Rall interview. We have no context. Did Ratigan giggle like a schoolgirl, or give acceptance to Rall’s comments as per the usual righty talk jock, or did he lambaste Rall? The context matters especially if Ratigan pointed out the ridiculousness of Rall’s claims. The link provides no evidence.
    The act of having Rall on the program MAY have been tantamount to the same as reporting of Angle and Palin, etc and their remarks and postings.

    And YES, clmbusboy1, I WILL email Ratigan with my extreme displeasure should you, or anyone else prove that not to be the case. maybe you can dig up more with a little research.

    Any takers on a valid response from GROG or Bart?? I’m holding a nickle!

    Waiting . . .

  100. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    BTW clmbusboy I did NOT say “no”. (You posted: He said there were “no” examples. I find it ridiculous to believe you cannot find a moron on either side of almost any debate.) Couldn’t have said “no” as I mentioned Manchin as an example.

    I posted:
    Max aka Birdpilot says:
    January 8, 2011 at 19:15
    I challenge ANYBODY, who wants to talk about this being a left vs. right, “THEY did it, too!” thing, please cite specific examples of a “left-wing” politician, radio or TV commentator using violent metaphors towards the opposition this past election cycle. The only one I can think of in Manchin from WV.

    I have cited Angle, Palin, and an attorney. O’reilly and Beck have also used the legal term “murder” in reference to abortion. Giffords recent GOP opponent used a machine gun in an ad. That’s FIVE from the right side of the equation without using Google.

    Not trying to keep score, but facts are facts, and I give a damn about equal time. The GOP had used fear as one of it’s primary tools since Willie Horton in 1988 and last year was an excellent example.

    So. Lets’ hear about some violent lefties last cycle. . .

  101. Mr. Universe says:

    Didn’t catch Ratigan. I’m not a fan of the multiple guest feeding frenzy shout shows. But I would certainly object to any talk like that.

  102. Bart DePalma says:

    Monotreme says: @SarahPalinUSA Remember months ago “bullseye” icon used 2 target the 20 Obamacare-lovin’ incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20 (90% success rate;T’aint bad)

    Wow dude, you might be onto something. I heard that the shooter was motivated by Target discount stores because their bullseye logo made him want to shoot large crowds of people.

    Chris Rich: His politics, if you could call a weird mish mash of Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto with a dash of Tolkein and Swift, politics, were some stew of lonely stoner delusions ineptly expressed. He had some commonalities with Ron Paul crackpots.

    Damn, I learn more and more here. I was unaware that Ron Paul was a totalitarian whose politics were guided by the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. The shooter must have been a damn libertarian Tea Bagger nazi communist!

    Max: And why the irresponsible use of words matter.
    When people as Sharon Angle talk about “2nd Amendment remedies” to fix Congress.

    Damn right! I also blame the schools for teaching the shooter about the American Revolution. Don’t they know that teaching about successful Second Amendment solutions will inspire whack jobs to shoot down groups of civilians?

    :::shakes head in horrified disbelief:::

  103. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    As usual, Bart DeLiar said: “__________”

    Good thing he has something valuable to contribute.

    Anyone else believe he and Mule Rider have exchanged roles? With Muley actually IMPROVING on the old Bart?

  104. Monotreme says:

    Bart:
    Take it up with Sheriff Dupnik. For my part, I just re-posted a Sarah Palin tweet, as I have many times before. Res ipsa loquitur, counselor.

  105. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Oh, sorry Bart, I forgot. Please excuse me.

    I just remembered that YOUR legal specialty is attempting to get drunk drivers to avoid the consequences of their actions. Makes you a PROFESSIONAL responsibility avoidance enabler.

  106. Monotreme says:

    @Mainer:
    My stepfather, a police officer, killed himself with a hollow point bullet in his mouth. My job was to clean up the mattress he was laying on when he died. You’re right about it — a nasty business. As I never want to see such a thing again, I have made the choice NOT to avail myself of my Second Amendment right, but I recognize that others have that choice.

  107. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Just had a look at the Ratigan-Rall clip . Found it with a little research.

    My take is that Rall is pushing his book and Ratigan is giving him a forum for that. The interview is rather softball, especially for Ratigan, who DOES NOT endorse Rall’s position. Unlike the righty talk jocks I’ve mentioned. In fact, Rall himself states violence is “the last case, worst case scenario” @ the 1:40 mark in the clip. At no time does he actually use a shooting or violent metaphor in practice.

    Y’all take a look and give me input. I WILL write to Ratigan and I’ll include some of that input in the strength of my personal objection.

    clmbusboy1, if you will email me at “birdpilot@gmail.com”, I’ll copy you with the Ratigan email. You can decide for yourself, and post it if you wish, my conviction as expressed.

  108. dcpetterson says:

    Personally, I’ve found Ratigan to be fairly conservative. He would not be above finding the most oddball leftie to bring on his show, so he can make the far left look bad.

    But looking at the clip, you’re correct. There is no way that Ratigan — or his guest, for that matter — sink to the level of a Limbaugh or a Beck or a Palin or Angle.

  109. dcpetterson says:

    @Max aka Birdpilot

    Bart was merely demonstrating his ability to isolate a fact out of context and make it mean something other than what it means.

    “I know what is best for you rabble!”
    – written by Bart DePalma

  110. Bart DePalma says:

    dcpetterson says: Bart was merely demonstrating his ability to isolate a fact out of context and make it mean something other than what it means.

    “I know what is best for you rabble!” – written by Bart DePalma

    My friend, it takes a special willingness to lie and a massive chutzpah to claim that an opponent is taking words out of context and seeking to prove this by taking the opponent’s words completely out of context.

    Par for your course.

  111. shiloh says:

    Barted ~ I was unaware that Ron Paul was a totalitarian whose politics were guided by the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf.

    Bartles, CR’s post re: Paul was a stand alone comment ~ He had some commonalities with Ron Paul crackpots. So yea, the only crackpot er deflecting fool in this thread, as always, is yourself. Bart did you know that reading comprehension is still a major problem in America …

    Again, your disingenuous :::shakes head in horrified disbelief::: sarcasm notwithstanding.

    take care, dude

  112. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Bart DeLiar (and professional responsibility avoidance enabler) said: “______”,

    With all the bratty ability of a snot-nosed, but precocious, 7 year old.

  113. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    “Yes, I knew that picking at that scab was a bad thing. But it was the bacteria that caused this infection! I had nothing to do with the infection!”

    TeaPer/Freeper/Bart logic

  114. shiloh says:

    Bartles you are 538’s (((out of context))) king! just sayin’ ~ although you don’t have chutzpah and sadly 😛 never will.

    take care, my friend

  115. fopplssiegeparty says:

    Republican Party: “We didn’t blow any dog whistle! And if we did, we didn’t mean it!”

  116. dcpetterson says:

    Bart,

    For you to complain about someone else taking your words out of context is the height of absurdity. Live with it. Or stop doing it.

  117. dcpetterson says:

    Update from teh hospital this morning — Rep. Giffords is still in critical condition, but her doctors are “cautiously optimistic.” There were a lot of things that could have gone wrong, but didn’t. She is in a medically-induced coma, from which they are able to occasionally wake her — and she is able to respond to simple requests and commands when she is awake.

    Whether she will ever recover enough to resume her duties is a different question, and no doctors are currently speculating on that.

    One of the saddest things about the 9-year-old child who died was that she was at the event because she was interested in politics, and wanted to be involved in learning more. I can only hope that we have all learned something about the current state of American politics.

  118. mclever says:

    Obviously, this shooting will wake people up to the dangers of violent rhetorical flourishes, and we can safely assume that all of the crazies will take this moment to reflect on their… Oh wait, this just in…

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html

  119. dcpetterson says:

    @mclever

    Oh my gods. If the entire political and talking-head establishment does not distance themselves from these people, there is something very wrong with American politics today.

  120. Monotreme says:

    @mclever:

    Fili’s Canadian hate speech laws are lookin’ pretty good right now, I must say.

    In the meantime, I like the idea of a human chain keeping out idiot protesters, à la Elizabeth Edwards’ funeral.

  121. fopplssiegeparty says:

    mclever: People like the WBC will do more to bring down organized religion than a whole army of Hitchens and PZ Myers.

  122. shiloh says:

    I can only hope that we have all learned something about the current state of American politics.

    Well, we learned about the current state of Arizona ~ ok, we already knew about AZ and Jan America’s sweetheart Brewer …

  123. clmbusboy1 says:

    @Max
    BTW clmbusboy I did NOT say “no”. (You posted: He said there were “no” examples. I find it ridiculous to believe you cannot find a moron on either side of almost any debate.) Couldn’t have said “no” as I mentioned Manchin as an example.

    But at 20:40 last night you said: Well, a couple of hours and no examples of left wingers with violent messaging.

    That was where I got the word “no” from. That was the reason for my confusion. My apologies if I missed your overall point. Also, I’m not sure Manchin qualifies as a ‘left-winger’ anyway. 🙂

    Then you said: So. Lets’ hear about some violent lefties last cycle. . .

    During his campaign, then Senator Obama said, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_knife_fight.html

    Again, I’m not addressing your initial challenge and Obama’s comment wasn’t “last cycle.” So you have me on that. But this example may trump any of the pundits you cited cause I sure put the President on a much higher pedestal than Glenn Beck!

  124. clmbusboy1 says:

    @Max
    I’m not sure what happened, but I did just make a post answering a couple of the points your brought out. Regarding your comment about “no examples,” quoting where you actually did say it, and an exapmle of a left leaning politician using questionable metaphors.

    Are we not allowed to post links here? I posted a link where President (then Senator) Obama said, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.” It was a politico link. Was that what sent the post into purgatory. 🙂

  125. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Bart (“out of context) DeLiar implies that Ms Angle’s comments were taken out of contest. Since context DOES matter, let’s look at HER words, over an 8 month period, just to see a context.

    In October 2009 on Bill Manders radio show:
    Bill Manders: We have domestic enemies. We have home-born homegrown enemies in our system. And I for one think we have some of those enemies in our own, in the walls of the Senate and the Congress.
    Sharron Angle: Yes. I think you’re right, Bill.

    In January 2010 on Manders:
    Sharron Angle: I feel that the Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms for our citizenry. This not for someone who’s in the military. This not for law enforcement. This is for us. And in fact when you read that Constitution and the founding fathers, they intended this to stop tyranny. This is for us when our government becomes tyrannical…
    Bill Manders: If we needed it at any time in history, it might be right now.
    Sharron Angle: Well it’s to defend ourselves. And you know, I’m hoping that we’re not getting to Second Amendment remedies. I hope the vote will be the cure for the Harry Reid problems.

    A couple of weeks later on Lars Larson radio show:
    Sharron Angle: You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact Thomas Jefferson said it’s good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.
    I hope that’s not where we’re going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out.
    Larson: If it continues to do the things it’s doing, I think she’s leaving open that possibility,” And I think the founders believed that the public should be able to do that when the government becomes out of control. It just matters what you define as going too far.”

    On 30 May in interview with Reno Gazette-Journal:
    “The nation is arming. What are they arming for if it isn’t that they are so distrustful of their government? They’re afraid they’ll have to fight for their liberty in more Second Amendment kinds of ways. That’s why I look at this as almost an imperative. If we don’t win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?

    Context matters.

    I report. You decide.

  126. fopplssiegeparty says:

    Great stuff, Max!

  127. dcpetterson says:

    clmbusboy1, sometimes the spam filter thinks a post with a link (or other obscure features) could be spam. I rescued your post from purgatory and approved it.

  128. clmbusboy1 says:

    @dcpetterson
    Thanks for the help. I appreciate it. Would it be better to say, “link provided upon request” in the future, in order to avoid this?

  129. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    clmbusboy1, Good point. But I put that one in the “talk softly but carry a big stick” and “They might start the fight, but I’ll finish it” category. And, as you point out, it was not in the last cycle. We can go back 200 years and find isolated instances of almost anything a candidate said.

    My whole point is the largely consistent statements made by pols and radio and TV talking heads in the last cycle on the right. In my above citations alone we have 3 politicians and two hosts in agreement with my premise. And a constant thread by Angle.

    Even the Manchin example may not have been valid as he was shooting at a bill he disagreed with and the context was clear in that.

    Keep trying. Show me something. Surely in a whole year and hundreds of races, something is out there.

  130. Monotreme says:

    Dave Weigel on Palin’s post-tragedy spin:

    http://slate.me/fVHyWk

  131. clmbusboy1 says:

    @Max
    I probably would have used Manchin as evidence supporting your side. I mean cause he’s more an R than several senators with an R next to their name. 🙂

    I’m not nearly the policital junkie you are. (I’m not saying that as an insult!) I do not follow national politics as much as you, so you are certainly more prepared. Reading your post, you have to wonder how Sharron Angle is not in an asylum, let alone nominated. I get a lot of my news from Jon Stewart. I still come down on his side, that *both* sides need to tone down their rhetoric. I still contend that there is stupidity on each side.

    I also discount the “murder” examples as it relates to abortion. That’s a much longer discussion for another time though. Addionally, I think most of the TV talking heads say things just for ratings, so I give what they say little credence. Olbermann questioned Boehner’s manhood based on the size of the gavel Pelosi gave him. 🙂

    I got into this discussion because I was disapointed that anyone other than the shooter himself (and now it turns out a possible accomplice) would be to blame. If it’s true that he favorited a flag burning video to his youtube page, I’m guessing you can’t call him a Palin zealout. It’s being reported that his favorite book is the “Communist Manifesto.” That likely has few similarities to “Going Rogue.” lol

    Lastly, if Palin indeed had this type of power over people, that she’s able to incite a radical to violence, well she’s certain to win in a landslide if she can find a way to use her hypnotic power to sway votes. That was my O’Donnell argument. If she was truly a witch, wouldn’t she have been able to cast some spell that won her the election. lol

  132. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Mono,

    Another good example of context.

    In spite of months and months of time, and with “reload” metaphors in between, it’s just now, ex post facto that the “surveyors’ excuse is played.

    Like Dick Armey saying Angle simply “misspoke” on the 2nd Amendment thingy, multiple times, over 8 months. Yeah, right!

  133. dcpetterson says:

    @monotreme —

    The post-shooting spin that Palin’s people are putting on it is pretty telling. They want to convince us that those “targets” were “surveyor’s symbols” and not “gun sights.”

    Why would they want to convince us of this?

    There is only one answer. Because they realize the ‘gun’ imagery is toxic, and is an incitement to violence.

    If the gun imagery was innocent and harmless, they’d have no problem saying, “Yes, those were gun sights. But no one could possibly take that in a bad way.”

    Instead, they’re saying, “No, those aren’t gun sights.” Because everyone knows gun sights mean — well, draw your own conclusions. If they’re honest, they’ll match mine.

  134. Mr. Universe says:

    New article on this topic.

  135. Monotreme says:

    clmbusboy1,

    Keep posting, and keep posting links. Sometimes there’s a delay of a few hours in getting the spam filter cleaned out, but there are five of us and between us, we check the filter pretty regularly.

    We are all learning a lot from each other in the respectful corners of this debate, and I cherish that.

  136. Monotreme says:

    @DC,

    I think they know they screwed the pooch. It will be telling to see how they, as a proto-campaign, respond. It’s best to confront this squarely and say,

    We didn’t mean anything by it, but now we are seeing a tragedy that some have connected to our political speech. Now is a time when we should all pull together to pray for Congresswoman Giffords’ speedy and full recovery, and for healing for the families of those that lost loved ones. In time, this campaign will have to consider the effects of our speech. Rest assured we will do that, not in the heat of the moment, but in the fullness of time.

    If they said something like that, they might even get me to think about voting their way. I’m almost 100% certain from what I’m seeing this morning that they won’t, and the window of opportunity is small and closes in the next day or two. After that, the American people will form an opinion, right or wrong, and it will be semi-permanent.

  137. shiloh says:

    Speaking of minutiae ~ Re: the grifter/charlatan palin and whether she’s running for anything other than a bank, it appears more and more that I will be the genius 😉 and not Nate.

    Stay tuned …

    btw, her TLC tripe er reality show has not been picked up for a second season, shocking!, as her (15) minutes are ticking down rather quickly, eh. but, but, but give her credit for being smart enough to know her dog and pony act would wear thin rapidly and makin’ all the $$$ she could in short time frame er all fame is fleeting.

    You bet’cha!

    Mentioned previously would it be prudent lol for cheney/bush to appear at the 2012 Rep convention after they both skipped 😛 the 2008 convention and the same could be said for mama grizzly as of course the best case scenario is ~ she runs, wins the nomination and then, and then, and then quits halfway thru her campaign …

    apologies to grifters and charlatans

  138. Pingback: Violence as a Political Tool | 538 Refugees

  139. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Still waiting . . .

  140. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Must be totally infuriating to use the “you too” (fallacious) argument, only to discover that there ain’t no “you too”!

  141. Monotreme says:

    Max:

    Leave ’em alone. They’re still looking for true Scotsmen.

  142. Pingback: Outrage Speech: Was the Left Right? | 538 Refugees

  143. Pingback: Is It Appropriate? | 538 Refugees

  144. A woman has to be intelligent, have charm, a sense of humor, and be kind. It’s the same qualities I require from a man.

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