Hot Fudge Sunday January 30

The lineup for this week’s Sunday news programs has already been impacted by changing events in Egypt. The following is the tentative lineup as of Saturday evening.

His Excellency Sameh Shoukry. Source: Washington Life Magazine, photo by Tony Powell.

This Week (ABC) — Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Egyptian Amb. Sameh Shoukry and Zbigniew Brzezinski with George Will, Martha Raddatz, Abderrahim Foukhara and Sam Donaldson.

Face the Nation (CBS) — Obama’s Chief of Staff William Daley, and Hillary Clinton.

Fareed Zakaria GPS (CNN) — British Prime Minister David Cameron.

State of the Union (CNN) — Hillary Clinton, Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Chuck Schumer (D-NY), John Negroponte, Edward Walker and Alan Simpson.

Fox News Sunday — House Speaker

House Speaker John Boehner. Source: ThinkProgress

John Boehner (R-OH) with Brit Hume, Kirsten Powers, William Kristol, and Nina Easton.

Meet the Press (NBC) — Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) and Hillary Clinton with Martin Indyk and Mike Murphy, Chuck Todd, Harold Ford, Jr., and Katty Kay.

Now that you’ve watched the Sunday shows, come here and discuss what you’ve seen and heard.


About Monotreme

Monotreme is an unabashedly liberal dog lover, writer, and former scientist who now teaches at a University in an almost-square state out West somewhere. http://www.logarchism.com | http://www.sevendeadlysynapses.com
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56 Responses to Hot Fudge Sunday January 30

  1. Mainer says:

    At a time when every word spoken about this mess in Egypt could be very harmful to both our short term and long term interests in that part of the world I hope to hell every one is V E R Y careful what they say. We can’t have 40 voices speaking for our government and any pointed effort to score political points at his expense or to undermine him would be about as low as it could get. Here is hoping all defer to the admin to try and wok us through this………do I actually think this will be followed? Hell no the nattering nabobs are not that bright some one or more likely more will have to jump in with both feet. I’m waiting for a foreign policy statement via Twitter from either Bachmann or Palin any time now.

    I have to believe the leaders in Israel must be having some bad moments right now. If Egypt falls apart look for Jordan to perhaps be next.

  2. Jungle Jim says:

    If Egypt falls apart Palistine will become uncontrollable. That alone could be enough to imperil Israel.

  3. shiloh says:

    New Rules ~ Jan. 14/28 ~ Founding Fathers vs. teabaggers/NFL = Socialism

    It’s kinda sad when Bill Maher and Jon Stewart are more informed about current affairs than 90% of the dweebs er pundits on cable news as they cut thru the crap er ad nauseam keen grasp of the obvious minutiae …

  4. Bart DePalma says:

    Why should we support authoritarian regimes in the Arab world that we would never tolerate here simply because it would make our foreign policy easier?

    America should take the opportunity presented by the largely non-violent people’s revolutions in the Arab world to join the Arab street and very openly pressure these governments to submit to democracy.

    Not only is this the right thing to do, it also destroys the recruiting tool of the Islamic terror groups that we support corrupt autocrats.

  5. Jungle Jim says:

    Bart, have you learned nothing from the debacle in Iraq? I think we have to realize its not our decision to make and we return to following George Washington’s lead- remain neutral.

  6. Bart DePalma says:

    Shiloh:

    You are correct. Maher definitely cuts through the spin and epitomizes today’s left. After yucking it up about the silliness of a Congress who cannot pass the simplest of quiz’ on the Constitution actually reading the document out loud, Maher then slanders 41% of the voters as white male racists with bad teeth.

    One wonders whether these comedians are personally this this arrogant and elitist or just pander to these faults of their leftwingnut fans for the money.

  7. shiloh says:

    America should take the opportunity presented by the largely non-violent people’s revolutions in the Arab world to join the Arab street and very openly pressure these governments to submit to democracy.

    Indeed, just like Dutch, Bush41 and cheney/bush did …

    Oh wait!

  8. Bart DePalma says:

    JJ: Bart, have you learned nothing from the debacle in Iraq?

    Iraq is currently the freest Arab nation on Earth and the only one with a true democracy. And you consider this to be a debacle?

  9. shiloh says:

    Indeed Bartles as most Republicans er teabaggers are totally incoherent in their idotic understanding of the U.S. Constitution!

    As “we” have finally found common ground at 538. 😛

    Kumbaya!

  10. Bartbuster says:

    Iraq is currently the freest Arab nation on Earth and the only one with a true democracy. And you consider this to be a debacle?

    It was certainly a debacle for us. Got WMD?

  11. shiloh says:

    Iraq is currently the freest Arab nation on Earth and the only one with a true democracy. And you consider this to be a debacle?

    Bwahaha! again Bartles, your incorrect analysis notwithstanding, please revisit the wonderful Democracy of Iraq ?!? in 30/40 years and get back to us w/more bloviating as Iraq’s non-stop bloody history suggests Sunni/Shiites just don’t get along. Kinda like Dems/Reps currently …

    ‘nuf said!

  12. Bartbuster says:

    Baghdad, don’t try to pretend that you care about the rights of Arabs. It’s people like you who scream the loudest when Arabs try to build an Islamic center in NYC.

  13. NotImpressed says:

    Shiloh, thanks for linking Maher. The right-wing’s elevation of stupid to an art form, its desire to make idiocy into a goal to be achieved, is truly dangerous. We see this idea epitomized in Bart’s sneering about “elites” and his casual lies about “a Congress who cannot pass the simplest of quiz’ on the Constitution”. The funny thing is, this Congress he imagines is precisely the stupid Congress he promotes. Yet the true tragedy of the Tea Party Right is that they’re too dumb to comprehend their own internal contradictions.

  14. shiloh says:

    Re: Bartles ~ It’s people like you who scream the loudest when Arabs try to build an Islamic center in NYC.

    Indeed, so nice, let’s say it twice …

    Bart, were you born a hypocrite ?!? Rhetorical question.

  15. Jean says:

    Perhaps it’s time to remember an event that occurred in Egypt less than one month ago.

    http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/08/thousands-muslims-human-shields/

  16. Monotreme says:

    I watched Secretary Clinton and Speaker Boehner on Fox News Sunday.

    I was impressed with Secretary Clinton as she attempted to thread the needle, supporting the Egyptian people while at the same time trying not to say anything to destabilize the Mubarak regime.

    On foreign policy, Speaker Boehner took exactly the right approach, and was very supportive of the Obama Administration’s policies. On domestic issues, not so much. He kept to his talking points, which is that the American people want us to cut government spending — we get that. How that is going to be done is still a mystery. I was gratified to hear him say, unequivocally, that it would be irresponsible to not raise the debt ceiling when that bill comes up in March.

  17. Bart DePalma says:

    Bartles ~ It’s people like you who scream the loudest when Arabs try to build an Islamic center in NYC.

    Unlike you, I can distinguish between the triumphalist propaganda efforts of Islamic terrorists and the democratic aspirations of the Arab peoples overseas.

    As I posted before, I fully support the building of a mosque near ground zero if the Imam running the mosque issues a fatwa finding that al Qeada and all terrorism is outside of Islam. Such a fatwa defeats any propaganda purpose of the mosque, which is why the radical Imam proposing the mosque will never issue it.

  18. Bart DePalma says:

    Shiloh:

    You are free to name a freer Arab country than Iraq with a democracy.

    Didn’t think so…

  19. Bart DePalma says:

    Mono:

    Boehner is suggesting that the GOP will enact a spending cut bill before they will vote to increase the debt ceiling, indicating that passing the former will be a prerequisite for voting on the latter.

    Any debt ceiling increase should be small enough only to last until the FY2012 budget is due in October so it can be used to force more spending cuts at that time.

  20. Bartbuster says:

    As I posted before, I fully support the building of a mosque near ground zero if the Imam running the mosque issues a fatwa finding that al Qeada and all terrorism is outside of Islam. Such a fatwa defeats any propaganda purpose of the mosque, which is why the radical Imam proposing the mosque will never issue it.

    Blankshot, last time I checked the Constitution did not require Arabs to issue fatwa’s in order for them to have the same rights as the rest of us.

  21. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Guess Bart fully supports the democratically elected Hamas folks in Gaza.

    Guess Bart fully supports the democratically elected Hezbollah folks now running Lebanon.

    Guess Bart would fully support a Muslim Brotherhood run government in Egypt should they come into power through democratic elections.

    Guess Bart would fully support a Palestinian faction led government should they, through democrat election (they do have a majority over the Bedouin population there) overthrow the Hashemite King Abdullah II in Jordan.

    Then Israel would be surrounded by outwardly hostile states. Probably regretting not having come to better terms to settle the West Bank issue with the Palestinians. Now, with Bart’s blessing, the clock may be set back 40 years. With all kinds of negative ramifications for the United States.

    You can’t always get what you want.” – Mick Jagger

  22. Jean says:

    Bart,

    re: You are free to name a freer Arab country than Iraq with a democracy. Didn’t think so…

    Answer: Turkey.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

  23. NotImpressed says:

    “I fully support the building of a mosque near ground zero if the Imam running the mosque issues a fatwa finding that al Qeada and all terrorism is outside of Islam. ”

    This is typical of the know-nothing attitude of the far right fringe. They are all for freedom of religion in America, so long as preachers say what some political pundit tells them to.

    No other religion has to issue proclamations demanded by some government body. There is no reason to require that Islam do so, just to satisfy the extortionist paranoia of right-wing politicians. Freedom will not be compromised in that way. Religion will not be made into the tool of the lunatic right. Americans demand that freedom of religion be valued everywhere, for everyone, not just for the elite few. We will not allow the Constitution to be trampled.

  24. Monotreme says:

    Maybe this is the Iraq that Faux News Bart is referring to:

    http://twitpic.com/bum2w

  25. Monotreme says:

    As Speaker Boehner says, let’s see what comes out of the Appropriations Committee process.

    The Republicans in the House won the election fair and square so I’m willing to give them a chance to offer spending cuts that will be acceptable to the Senate and President. I’m not happy about the “job-killing Obamacare bill” nonsense and I suspect it’s the way things are going to go.

    I fear that demagoguery will win the day. I hope I’m wrong.

  26. Jean,

    Bart,
    re: You are free to name a freer Arab country than Iraq with a democracy. Didn’t think so…
    Answer: Turkey.

    Not really a good answer. Only half a million of the 73M residents of Turkey consider themselves to be Arabs. The country is dominated by Turks, who are not Arabs.

  27. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Once you get past Saudi, the Emirates, Yemen, Iraq and Lebanon there are slim pickings for countries with Arab ethnic majorities.

    Many people confuse Muslim with Arab, as with Iran and Egypt.

  28. Brian says:

    Bahrain is just below the US in terms of economic freedom. Also high on the list are Qatar, Oman, and Jordan. Iraq has a score of “N/A”, which probably doesn’t help your argument. (http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking)

    If you’re speaking politically free, then Morocco has a constitutional monarchy, as does Bahrain.

  29. shiloh says:

    Barted ~ I fully support the building of a mosque near ground zero (((if)))

    W/Bartles there’s always an “if” ie a qualifier when he is trying to dance around his overt racism.

    Repeating, a “puppet” govt. created by cheney/bush is not in any way, shape or form a democracy ie your premise is laughable …

    btw, where should the U.S. military strike next in creating a puppet democracy and how long should American troops stay in creating said “puppet” govt.

    hmm, a better question is how many countries export oil to the U.S. eh

    take care, blessings

  30. Brian,

    Morocco has a constitutional monarchy

    True, but with a much more powerful monarch than, say, England’s. Governmentally speaking, it has more in common with Iran, except with a king instead of an ayatollah.

    as does Bahrain

    Bahrain may well be the most politically free country in the Arab world. It’s very similar in government structure to the UK, perhaps a bit more like the UK of a century ago than that of today.

  31. Mainer says:

    Michael, friends that have spent time in Jordan and other countries in the region have always liked that country as well and consider it to be reasonably open. I know it has a monarch and is the last remnant of the old Hashemite empire and it does have elections but one would have to worry about their stability if Egypt were to really fall apart and become an Islamic nation in the form of say Iran.

    I suspect at this point the best we can hope for would be some one such as an ElBarradea to pick up the pieces and for groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood not to tear the place apart. The military is going to play a huge role in all of this. It is important to remember that we have had military relations with the Egyptian military for some time now and that many Egyptian officers have trained here or there with American counterparts. It is most likely this military that will resolve the present situation and which will then have to put together a road to the future. There would appear to be no love lost between the military and groups like the Muslim Brotherhood but how the lower ranks would react is any bodies guess.

    I find it interesting that bouncing around right wing sites today I have seen repeated calls for the elimination or outright assination of ElBaradea. European sites seem to echo that Mubark is done and the best picture has him handing off power to an interim and the military then directing elections which are already scheduled for Sepetember. It may be though that he stayed at the ball just a little too long and now may not be able to see a peaceful transition. That would be sad for the region and a major blow to our interests and certainly to Israel and Jordan and would probably pull down the nonHamas Palestinians.

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Sudan which appears to be in early stages of unrest right now as well. I doubt the powers there will have any problem with using force to control the situation.

  32. Bart DePalma says:

    Max aka Birdpilot says: Guess Bart fully supports the democratically elected Hamas folks in Gaza.

    So you would prefer to live under a despot because the voters elected presidents like Reagan and Bush who you thought were awful?

    BD: You are free to name a freer Arab country than Iraq with a democracy.

    Jean: Answer: Turkey.

    The turkic and kurdish peoples in Turnkey would be very surprised to discover they live in an arab country.

    BD: “I fully support the building of a mosque near ground zero if the Imam running the mosque issues a fatwa finding that al Qeada and all terrorism is outside of Islam. ”

    NI: No other religion has to issue proclamations demanded by some government body.

    When did I become a governmental body? Just because an Imam can erect a mosque celebrating the 9/11 attacks under our First Amendment does not mean that it is right.

    Brian says: Bahrain is just below the US in terms of economic freedom. Also high on the list are Qatar, Oman, and Jordan. Iraq has a score of “N/A”, which probably doesn’t help your argument. (http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking)

    Authoritarian countries often have free economies. Individual liberty encompasses free markets AND free minds.

    MW: Bahrain may well be the most politically free country in the Arab world. It’s very similar in government structure to the UK, perhaps a bit more like the UK of a century ago than that of today.

    More like the UK of Charles Cromwell.

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=581&alert=22

  33. shiloh says:

    So you would prefer to live under a despot because the voters elected presidents like Reagan and Bush who you thought were awful?

    Bart, your above deflection doesn’t make any sense. Please keep your nonsensical deflections, inane comparisons/analogies on topic. Thanx!

  34. shiloh says:

    And let the record show Bart has not disputed Iraq is an American supported, 100% dependent, totally fragile, puppet govt. An inferno waiting to explode in an instant once the U.S. is totally out of the picture.

    hmm, America supported the Shah in Iran, look at it now.

    America supported Mubarak in Egypt, look at it today.

    America er cheney/rummy/bush41 supported Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

    America supported Noriega, Marcos etc. etc.

    Not a very good Republican Party national security track record, eh

    >

    Interesting the Berlin Wall came down on its own w/out any help from America! ok, ok, again let’s thank Ted Turner and the internet/cable news media ie the information highway as the truth is out there!

    >

    Again Bartles, I’m from the American gov’t and I’m here to help! 😛

    take care, blessings

  35. Mainer,
    No doubt. I was referring to the structure of the government itself, not the people within it.

    A good ruler in a bad system is better in the short run than a bad ruler in a good system. In the long run, though, a bad system is harder to fix, and leads to more despotism.

  36. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    America supported . . .

    you left out Pinochet.

    Wait, wasn’t HE the one who overthrew a “democratically elected” president?

    Wait again, wasn’t he SUPPORTED by the US government in doing so?

    Wait once again, wasn’t it our OWN CIA during the administration of Richard Nixon?

    Bart should avoid getting tripped on his OWN inconsistencies.

    barted: “So you would prefer to live under a despot because the voters elected presidents like Reagan and Bush who you thought were awful?” For someone who consistently refers to a democratically elected President and government of the United States as “tyranny”, Bart has, with this WTF conclusion, once again, and in one fell swoop, demonstrates his ability to conflate two completely separate events to form a false assertion, and concurrently showcases his inability to use reasoned arguments.

  37. NotImpressed says:

    Bart asked:
    “When did I become a governmental body?”

    How else do you propose to enforce your ridiculous requirement for the patriotic Arab Americans to succumb to your elitist tyrannical demands?

    “Just because an Imam can erect a mosque celebrating the 9/11 attacks under our First Amendment does not mean that it is right.”

    Fortunately, no Imam has suggested doing such a thing. That you decide to paint such a paranoid and dishonest picture makes all of conservatism look bad.

    Fortunately also, most Republicans had the good sense to drop this nonsense immediately after it became apparent America wasn’t falling for it. As the usual sort of Republican jingoistic election-year gimmick, it could have been argued to serve a purpose. But only a true opponent of American democracy could hold such a position after that point.

  38. Mainer says:

    Michael, agreed. Whiich makes the situation in the Sudan even more interesting. Lets see a really bad ruler and a system that is a shambles, corrupt, you name it. Talk about some thing waiting to implode. Oh and let us not add that South Sedan just voted 97 or 98+% to one to leave and form their own country. Bashirs little war against them probably didn’t endear him or his government much in that region or th fact that black Christians didn’t want to live under a Muslim crackpot. I read some wheere that even a majority of the muslims in the area voted with the Christians to get out of dodge. Now that had to sting.

    Al-jezera has several interesting articles on this whole mess and one in particular I would invite all to go and check out. The article looks at the demographic situation in many of the affected countries and that they now have so many unemployed, educated or this huge group of young people with no future that some thing like this was almost inevitable. A PoliSci Prof I had just 10 years ago predicted this because of the stagnation that area has experienced. The keep quiet and we will keep feeding you tactic now having backfired but good. Now many of the countries don’t the ability to keep the masses fed, haven’t made and real moves to improve situations and just became more autocratic. Talk about a recipe for disaster.

  39. Bart DePalma says:

    Shiloh:

    My analogy apparently went right over your head. Let me speak more bluntly. You argue that Arabs need to forego democracy because they have sometimes elected anti-democratic regimes like Hamas. Americans do not desire nor should they have to forego democracy because they elected and anti-democratic regime in 2008. Why should the Arabs?

    Given that the Iraqi voters generally ignore our preferences and their elected government forced the Bush Administration into an agreement which has our troops leaving the country, ignored our views on their constitution and their relationship with Iran, your claim that Iraq is a puppet regime is a bad joke.

    Finally, if you have not noticed, American troops are no longer patrolling Iraqi streets, the Iraqis have taken over their own security, AQI attacks are up somewhat and there is no sign at all of your hoped for civil war between Iraqi ethnic groups. Rather, Iraq has a far more diverse democracy than say California or Texas.

  40. shortchain says:

    Bart,

    You know, I searched through Shiloh’s comments and found nothing justifying your statement that he would “argue that Arabs need to forego democracy because they have sometimes elected anti-democratic regimes like Hamas.”

    Also, what makes Hamas or Hezbollah “anti-democratic”? Until they refuse to hold free and fair elections, or refuse to relinquish power once those elections are won by someone else, you have no right to describe them as “anti-democratic”.

    My understanding is that there are actually a few characteristics that mark a healthy democracy:
    1. Free and fair elections.
    2. Willing, orderly, and lawful change of government based on the results of those elections.

    (There are several subsidiary characteristics, such as a free press, lack of corruption, etc, etc, but those are the biggies, from what I understand.)

    By that measure, Iraq is hardly an example to point to. Egypt fails massively on both accounts, and Tunisia doesn’t seem to be all that good either.

  41. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    Bart demonstrates, while trying to compare democracy in America and Western Europe, the substantial cultural and religious differences between the two societies are completely outside his realm of knowledge or consideration.

    An American Revolution with the same resultant American Constitution and Declaration of Independence COULD NOT have occurred even 300 years earlier in Western Culture, maybe 200. The cultural and religious context just was not there.

    To assume that context does not matter is making the same mistake over and over again.

  42. shiloh says:

    My analogy apparently went right over your head. Let me speak more bluntly. You argue that Arabs need to forego democracy

    lol over my head as I’m soooo glad us peons can’t delete/edit posts, only the few at the top can play god.

    Anyway, that’s not my dog ie that wasn’t my argument, it was Max.

    Bartles is totally frickin’ confused, god love him! 😀

    >

    Again, let the record show: Bart did not disputed Iraq is an American supported, 100% dependent, totally fragile, puppet govt. An inferno waiting to explode in an instant once the U.S. is totally out of the picture.

    >

    Rather, Iraq has a far more diverse democracy than say California or Texas.

    Damn Bartles as idiotic, nonsensical, hyperbolic trolls are jealous. Let the record show Baghdad Bart’s next luxurious vacation will be … you guessed it, sunny/tranquil Iraq! 😛

    Again Bart, I know this is a rather large blog 😉 but try to pay attention to whom is calling you a fool, eh as you continue to dodge 24/7 rational, liberal bullets at 538.

    take care and start packing for your Middle East excursion soon! as your continual pretzel logic is quite entertaining, even for an insufferable, inane blowhard like yourself.

    apologies to blowhards …

  43. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    shiloh,

    thanks for point that out to Bart. He so easily gets confused.

    And saying that I am arguing against Arab democracy is a misstatement.

    I am arguing against the imposition of democracy from the OUTSIDE, instead of letting the society evolve it on it’s own.

  44. shiloh says:

    Max, I’m adopted and at least half Italian so hopefully 😀 I have Mafia connections!

    “Leave the gun, keep the cannoli.”

  45. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    “Fredo, er, uh, shiloh, you’re my older brother, and I love you. But don’t ever . . .”

  46. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    And so NOW the truth comes out! Y’all eye-Talians was STILL so mad as the drubbing us Scots put on y’all, and probably yer great . . . great grandpa, in 79 AD and even after that Hadrian built that wall protecting y’all and yer whipped Englishters, y’all had to come over here 1800 years later and shoot my ancestor.

    I guess y’all think that makes us even, now.

    Reckon I’ll have to uncork a jug and think on that one.

  47. Bart DePalma says:

    Shiloh:

    Sorry for confusing Max with you. I would resent being saddled with Max’s comments as well.

    shortchain says: Also, what makes Hamas or Hezbollah “anti-democratic”?

    Oh, I dunno, Hamas killing 118 people during 2007 operations cleaning the opposition Fatah party out from Gaza. What would be your reaction if the rather well armed Tea Party cleaned out all the Dems from Washington DC?

    Max aka Birdpilot says: An American Revolution with the same resultant American Constitution and Declaration of Independence COULD NOT have occurred even 300 years earlier in Western Culture, maybe 200. The cultural and religious context just was not there.

    You need an armed populace who will settle for nothing less than democracy. The combination of the two are admittedly rare.

    To assume that context does not matter is making the same mistake over and over again.

    What mistake is that?

  48. Mainer says:

    It would be nice to think Iraq could bcome a long term working democracy, our sons and daughters, friends and neighbors certainly paid a hell of an admission price to get them into the new democracy theater. Not to mention what it has caused this nation image wise or to the state of our economy/deficit. I just wish I had more confidence in them meeting the continued demands of actually making such an undertaking work. This last election cycle is troubling on a number of counts. Did the actual winners get to try and set up a new government or were they screwed out of their win by political machinations? Why would said democracy take 6 or more months to set up a new government that is stil questionable in its representation? How many of these trial and error cycles will they get before the Iraqui electorate turns on them even worse than they did this last time and gives some thing like Alawi’s alliance a clear mandate? Will the then in power actually step aside for what will be Suni/Kurd dominated group? I’m not convinced they will or that Iran will allow it but that is another story.

    We certainly have our own history to point out that it isn’t going to be easy or predictable that they will not have some very major events to work through but to say they are at this point a successful new democracy over simplifies the situation. Even that said they face a better chance than I would suggest Afghanistan does for actually ever forming a lasting functional, honest democracy and again I would point to their last election as evidence of the jurry still being out.

    Establishing and instilling democratic principles in a people that have no customs with the same, no history of the experience and multiple factions vieing not for competing spots of leadership but against the very principal makes the whole efforts outcome that much more in doubt. Demoracy can not be imposed from without by the very deffinition of the process that is not democracy. It either happens organically or it pretty much does not happen oddly enough I will now supply 2 examples of situations where it apparently did come from without. Germany and Japan. Would we wish to go through some thing like that again how many times over to acheive the same in the MiddleEast?

    We are about to experience a vast poli/sci lab in action. We can wring our hands and nudge and urge but in an area where we have little credence to start with what ever we touch will be seen as tinted. In terms of diplomacy this has to be just the worst of worlds. Hosni needs to take up residence with his extended family in…oh say Palm Springs. The sooner the better for each day he now stays there the ability of the military to successfully broker any thing approaching a good end to this decreases. Sorry Hosni…….retire today should have moved well up on your todo list some time ago for today you have probably lost the chance to have much of any thing to say about the out come.

    Bashir, I’m guessing you will not get some of those better options. He will create a bllod bath and still lose, if not now then soon. He will more likely end up as an Italian guy did in 1945 than get the chance to move to California but in contrast to Mubarak well he makes Hosni look quite gentile.

    The big question will remain though of which nation next as so many of them share the same economic and democraphic time bombs. Expect radical Islam to gain some holds and maybe lose some but the political map of the region could be forever changed. Going to be a hell of a show to watch.

  49. Max aka Birdpilot says:

    barted: You need an armed populace who will settle for nothing less than democracy. The combination of the two are admittedly rare.
    and
    What mistake is that?

    Mainer demonstrates the fallacy of Barts 1st comment. The fact Bart asks the 2nd as a question demonstrates his lack of knowledge of the reasons for the1st.

    Bart, THINK, before you write. Please?

  50. shiloh says:

    Barted ~ I would resent being saddled with Max’s comments as well.

    Actually, I feel a kindred spirit w/Max, especially since he has repeatedly buried you in thread after thread at 538.

    And please, I beseech you, stay clear of those socialist conclaves, TX and CA. Yea, you don’t normally hear Texas and California in the same sentence, but all things are possible w/Bartles! lol

    Bart, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. If you have any friends.

    ciao

  51. shortchain says:

    Bart,

    You do recall that Fatah did not willingly acquiesce to the election victory of Hamas, don’t you? How do you think the teapers would have reacted had their candidates not been allowed to take their positions?

    Oh, wait, we know that the teapers threatened armed violence even if they lost!

    I’m not a fan of Hamas. Or Fatah. But by the standards of the ME, they’re hardly the worst. Again: you can’t claim Hamas is anti-democratic unless and until they refuse to allow free and fair elections or refuse to allow the winners of those elections to take their office.

  52. Bart DePalma says:

    Mainer says: This last election cycle is troubling on a number of counts. Did the actual winners get to try and set up a new government or were they screwed out of their win by political machinations? Why would said democracy take 6 or more months to set up a new government that is stil questionable in its representation? How many of these trial and error cycles will they get before the Iraqui electorate turns on them even worse than they did this last time and gives some thing like Alawi’s alliance a clear mandate?

    The Iraqis appear to be where America was during the 1824 election and where Italy is during most elections, which is still a damn sight better than Bahrain, Egypt or Tunisia. The American electorate did indeed come back in 1828 and elect Jackson to a clear mandate. The Iraqis could do the same for Alawi the next time around.

    Will the then in power actually step aside for what will be Suni/Kurd dominated group? I’m not convinced they will or that Iran will allow it but that is another story.

    Such a group could not win an electoral majority without substantial Shia support. If that were to come to pass, the Iraqi reaction would indeed be interesting.

    Democracy is never easy and a quarter millennium of generally peaceful transitions of power in the United States (depending upon how you look at the 1861 southern succession) is an historically unique gift from God. It is unfair to judge other countries by our unique standard.

  53. dcpetterson says:

    Bart, do not, do not, do not presume to lecture anyone to the left of you on democracy.

    You are free to show us a single opinion poll from the last six months showing a majority of Americans who opposed repeal of DADT.

    You are free to show us a single opinion poll from the last six months showing a majority of Americans who opposed ratification of START.

    You are free to show us a single opinion poll from the last six months showing a majority of Americans who supported tax breaks for people making over $250,000.

    You are free to show us a single opinion poll from the last six months showing a majority of Americans who support outright repeal of the PPACA.

    You are free to show us which presidential election in 2008 Obama lost.

    You were at odds with all of these positions, and all the time you had the audacity to pretend that opposition to the Will of the People made one in favor of TYRANNY.

    Do not presume to lecture anyone on the topic of democracy.

  54. shiloh says:

    Barted ~ It is unfair to judge other countries by our unique standard.

    Especially since Bart and his ilk keep telling us America is currently led by an illegitimate Communist, Marxist, Socialist, Islamo-Fascist, wealth distributor Muslim born in Kenya yada yada yada, who wakes up every morning hating America and Americans …

    The horror!

    but, but, but Bartles, Barack Hussein Obama, was/is the freely elected 44th President of the United States of America! 🙂 w/(((69.5 million))) votes ~ (7.5) million more than cheney/bush got in 2004.

    1) Denial
    2) Anger
    3) Bargaining
    4) Depression
    5) Acceptance

    Sadly, Bartles is still stuck between 1 & 2 …

  55. Mainer says:

    Here is some thing most will not expect……..Bart I substantially agree………we did ideed have some election cycles in our past that were of question. You mention one that has been studied by many US historians you leave out one that many of us on this site would include (2000 ring a bell) but we did indeed weather them, or at least we think we did.

    Egypt and Tunesia are just political poster chidren of what happens when one man rule runs out of ways to buy off the populace to stay complacent. Bahrain is not Egypt and Tunesia. While their Monarchy would seem strange to us it is quite possibly the most open and well educated society in that part of the world and while not what we know in terms of democracy women do have the vote and use it and the society has eyes open to the world as a whole and has oportunities to do some thing with an education that can be both productive and economically rewarding and interestingly enough their population democraphics are at variance with much of the rest of that part of the world.

    For Tunesia and Egypt they are over run with the <25 age group. Many are educated as that was all they had available to them even though there are large numbers of their age grouping with little education they all share one thing in common. They have no future. They have been marginalized by governments that have not provided either the environment for expansion from the private side or government options for employement. They just have no future and as their numbers have sky rocketed so has their desire for some thing better.

    This is where the whole islamist thing comes in. It appears that the Islamists may have missed the boat as well. Urging bright young educated people to just suck it up for god isn't playing as well as some from that corner had hoped. We will most likely see continued turmoil in countries like Tunesia and Egypt even after the present situation is over as the young educated deal with the young uneducated that have listened to the Islamists. Regardless of what happens in the present the whole region is going to have to look to the future and understand that unless and until it addresses the needs and aspirations of a large block of its people that there will be no peace.

    Some of you may find it interesting that some one from Maine would prattle on like this about the Midle East. Well for some reason Maine has several large enclaves of retired State Department types and retired CIA. They get bored and there are guest lecturers and seminars available on all kinds of topics. Maine winters are long and many of us take time off from ice fishing and shoveling snow to go to these gentile gatherings. The discussions are always insghtful and the guy sitting next to you commenting on some point may, even though dressed in LL Bean casual wear much like yourself, may have been the station chief in Islamabad before retirering to the chilly quiet of Maine. It is wonderful really and I have met people from places and back grounds one might not find in many places but then again this is Maine and we are just plain different.

    The major point to all of this. Do not expect any quick or easy play outs to this. Political Science and sociologist types have been predicting this actual situation for some time now. We as nation can play this well or we can bolux it up. But there are no simple or quick answers and it could and most likely will be very messy. Our role should be quietly supportive of the role of the peoples needs and wants not as the all knowing but as the all respectful and supportive. What comes out may not look the way we want it to but it will not mean it is not appropriate. I am glad I am not the prsident or Ms. Clinton for theirs is not going to be an easy role in this.

  56. Bart DePalma says:

    The liberal National Journal reviews the dead man walking group of Dem Senate incumbents in swing states and essentially assumes the GOP will take the Senate in 2012.

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/columns/against-the-grain/gop-marching-to-a-senate-majority-20110201

    These Dems all voted against repeal of Obamacare today. Two time losers.

    This is why the Dems did not seriously attempt to remove or reform the filibuster last month.

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