She Loves Me; She Loves Me Not…

We’ve all seen it sometime or other, haven’t we? The wimpy, pathetic guy who dogs the pretty girl, following her around, buying her lunch, helping with her computer, giving her show tickets… all in the hope that someday she will realize in a flash of revelation that HE is the man for her, the one she’s been looking for all her life! Meanwhile she dates the quarterback and makes the nerd accompany her to football games, where he stands around sullenly holding her books while she cheers for her man.


And the day comes when his patience is rewarded. The dream girl is furious with the quarterback. He spends too much time at practice and on road trips; he has to study hard to keep up his GPA and she feels neglected; and he’s been seen laughing with one of the cheerleaders. Clearly he needs to be taught a lesson. So she goes on a couple of dates with the nerd, and makes sure the quarterback sees them cuddling in the stands at a football game.


The nerd is in transports of pimply hubris. He has won! Victory is his! The girl of his dreams has finally seen his sterling qualities and realized she’s been wrong all this time. Her charms will be his, and his alone. He is HOT!! He struts. He brags. He sneers and mocks the quarterback, publicly referring to him as a “pathetic loser.”


But we all know how this story ends, don’t we?


I am constantly baffled by the triumphal, arrogant approach of Republicans to this election. Do they really think anybody is choosing them because of their ‘policies’? These Republican victories will be nothing but a classic rejection of the party in power during a time of high unemployment. Congressional Democrats still enjoy an average 5-point advantage over their Republican counterparts in national approval ratings, and the president has just surged to 54% on a Newsweek poll published yesterday. In late September Gallup asked people who were planning to vote Republican why they had made that decision, and allowed them to frame their own answer. 16% liked their own candidate, and 6% said they were specifically voting for Republican ideas and policies. Others volunteered something related to wanting to send a message, always voting Republican, not happy with the way things are going, and so forth.


This is no sweeping, widespread embrace of right-wing governance. It is a protest vote, pure and simple. As soon as the economic climate begins to improve, the electorate will once again reject the people who have no new ideas, no feel for governing and no plans for the country except to “take it back”. And those reactionary, intrusive social policies they are unwittingly voting for will attempt to do that very thing.


Face it, wingers. She may be willing to go out with you just this one time as a way to show the other guy she’s seriously mad at him. But don’t get too full of yourselves.


Really, she’s just not that into you.

 


About filistro

Filistro is a Canadian writer and prairie dog who maintains burrows on both sides of the 49th parallel. Like all prairie dogs, she is keenly interested in politics and language. (Prairie dogs have been known to build organized towns the size of Maryland, and are the only furry mammal with a documented language.)
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131 Responses to She Loves Me; She Loves Me Not…

  1. shrinkers says:

    Filistro, once again your gift for dead-on analogy shines like a ray of sunlight.The triumphalism of the right truly is something to see. And that they are tearing apart their own party in the process, and are blind to the destruction they are heaping upon themselves, all the while cheering their success — just, wow.

  2. robert verdi says:

    A significant amount of pre-election swagger from my fellows on the right is in reaction to the great deal of swagger from the left following 2006 and 2008. It was only last year we were being called “the dying demographic” on the verge of oblivion, now we are on the cusp of an extraordinary win. With that said I do hope the GOP does well this cycle, and I also hope the focus becomes quite policy victories and not ostentatious headline grabbing actions that barely move the political Richter scale.

  3. Morty says:

    Maybe the “pretty girl” is throughly pissed at the quarterback who told her that he could dance like Fred Astaire but moves like PeeWee Herman, that he would wine her and dine her but they only eat at Arbys, promised her a trip to Europe but only takes her to Paris, Texas and then blames the same pretty girl everytime the quarterback fumbles the ball. I hate to tell you Filestro, but this pretty girl ain’t that much into the Democrats either. There are only two guys on campus this November, and neither of them are looking that hot right now.

  4. filistro says:

    Morty, I think the pretty girl has gotten pretty sulky and hard to please. The poor quarterback has been knocking himself out for her… in addition to everything else he has to look after, he’s given her more than any boyfriend she’s had in recent years. But what thanks does he get? He gives her a nice new watch and she pouts and says “But… I was hoping for a Longines.” Serves her right to spend some quality time with teh nerd, who thinks knee socks are too revealing and lively music is an invention of the devil.That handsome young quarterback is going to be looking mighty good after a few months of Friday night prayer meetings, followed by the sheer fun of sitting around with glasses of prune juice and watching videotaped Sarah Palin speeches.

  5. Mainer says:

    Years ago in my area we had an interesting individual locally that was handicapped and did things like wash windows to make money. Every one liked old Wilfred and some knew that he had all kinds of money and property but lived quite simply in a local <1 star hotel. Well one local bimbette figured out that all she had to do was promise ole Wilfred the moon, marry him and work her willes to the max with ole Wilfred most likely going to the promised land whilst in the saddle and she would at worst be left with some unpleasant memories and much cash and property…..so they married. A while after that ole Wilfred wandered into the local jewelery store one day when the store had a number of local matrons in company and told the jewler Bill he needed a watch for his new wife. Bill being ever helpful told Wilfred he couldn't go wrong with a good Gruen. Ole Wilfred shook his head saddly and loudly told Bill in his speech born of several strokes "No Bill I have her a really good Gruen last night but she still wants a damned watch."Well I for one will just wait until the easily lead electorate realizes they have had a really good Gruen and let the process play out while the electorate explains to the newly anointed that what they really wanted was a good watch or governance.By the way ole Wilfreds anouncement that day caused some thing of a small stampeed as the local matrons left but at least one is beleived to have sought ole Wilfred out after his new wife figured out that old Wilfred wasn’t about to die any time soon and left town with some one from the carnival. Well boys and girls the carnival is in town, we are all about to get a good Gruen and it shall be high theater when C-Span soon becomes a 24-7 freak show.

  6. filistro says:

    “I have her a really good Gruen last night but she still wants a damned watch.” LOLOLOLOL!!!And there who are people who think politics isn’t fun! I’m finding this election richly entertaining. And the upcoming Congress, chock full of mixed nuts and pickles… I can hardly wait. It will be so… interesting.

  7. filistro says:

    Speaking of mixed nuts, I’d been wondering why the Dems are pouring so much energy into DE. I mean really… O’Donnell is at 7% on Intrade. Do they really need to run ads about witches and send both Obama and Biden to the state to campaign when resources are heavily stretched at this point in the campaign?It didn’t dawn on me until a few days ago what these smart guys are up to.O’Donnell is so deliciously nuts… so Sarah-Palin-ignorant, so totally Tea Party crazy… that her race (and the huge publicity around it) are beginning to drag down Republican candidates all over the NE where GOP victories are key to the “wave.”Just to think… they could have had safe, reliable, well-loved Mike Castle in that race. LOL… again, karma.So…How’s that Tea Party thing workin’ out for ya, Bart?

  8. Morty says:

    Sorry Fili, that just doesn’t hold water. The people are angry for a reason and as long as the Obama apologists calll them “stupid” and “short-sighted” for being angry then the Democrats are going to lose. Let’s go back to your original analogy. When the quarterback cums in the pretty girl’s mouth after promising that he won’t what are the chances he’s going to get another BJ? Sorry but the Dems put an ugly taste in my mouth and that ain’t going away by November 2….I hate to admit this but it probably ain’t going away by 2012 either.

  9. shortchain says:

    Morty,Do, please, tell us exactly which Obama apologists calll(sic) them “stupid” and “short-sighted” for being angry”, so we can go castigate them properly.

  10. Bart DePalma says:

    Fili:You have now officially entered the denial stage of grief.Almost as if on cue, AP just issued this comprehensive poll of LVs covering every notable political issue. I never thought I would see the like in my lifetime – likely voters in a national election favoring the GOP on every single issue – including such Dem standbys as health care and social security!http://www.ap-gfkpoll.com/pdf/AP-GfK%20Poll%20October%202010%20full%20topline.pdfThey used to say that a conservative was a liberal who had been mugged. It appears that many voters feel the current government has mugged them.

  11. Bart DePalma says:

    Another sure sign of that a political apocalypse is at hand – the Dem Miami Herald just endorsed the Tea Party candidate Rubio!Man this is going to be a fun week!

  12. Morty says:

    OK, you might want to start with the author of this piece.”Morty, I think the pretty girl has gotten pretty sulky and hard to please. The poor quarterback has been knocking himself out for her… in addition to everything else he has to look after, he’s given her more than any boyfriend she’s had in recent years. But what thanks does he get? He gives her a nice new watch and she pouts and says ‘But… I was hoping for a Longines.'” BTW – I apologize for the typo. I know no one has ever mis-spelled anything before in the history of the internet.

  13. Anonymous says:

    fili said:and the president has just surged to 54% on a Newsweek poll published yesterdayAnd Gallup has him at 43% yesterday. Would the Newsweek poll not be considered an outlier? Isn’t Gallup considered the goldstandard by the left?. I’m surprised you cherry picked the Newsweek poll.

  14. filistro says:

    He gives her a nice new watch and she pouts and says ‘But… I was hoping for a Longines.'”How is that calling the Dems “stupid and short-sighted”? I freely admit to calling them overly-demanding. I am quite annoyed with Democrats who castigate Obama for not giving them an immediate end to both wars, a repeal of DADT, a public option in health care AND a pony… all in two years while dealing with the worst recession in 80 years and the most deliberately obstructionist opposition party in history.But “stupid and shortsighted?” I don’t get where you see that.

  15. filistro says:

    Ooops! I did it again.

  16. filistro says:

    @Anonymous… I’m surprised you cherry picked the Newsweek poll.I’m grasping at straws. 🙂

  17. Anonymous says:

    I’m grasping at straws.I love your honesty, fili.

  18. filistro says:

    @Bart… Another sure sign of that a political apocalypse is at hand Bart, dear… have you noticed that you’ve become a soloist? You don’t even have conversations anymore. Furthermore, you’re singing a different song than anybody else. In fact (to continue the earlier analogy)… you’re down on the football field singing “Tosca” at the top of your lungs while everybody else is trying to watch the game.But we tolerate it because we love you… and we all know that after the election you will return to what passes for sanity out there in Bart-World.

  19. filistro says:

    Speaking of Bart… :-)Maybe this helps to explain a few things.Jonah Goldberg, who is presently in CO, claims this question will actually be on the ballot there next week:Shall the voters for the City and County of Denver adopt an Initiated Ordinance to require the creation of an extraterrestrial affairs commission to help ensure the health, safety, and cultural awareness of Denver residents and visitors in relation to potential encounters or interactions with extraterrestrial intelligent beings or their vehicles, and fund such commission from grants, gifts and donations?

  20. Bart DePalma says:

    Fili:Unfortunately for our national image, Goldberg is correct. The rest of Colorado had a good chuckle at Blue Denver’s latest silliness.

  21. Bart DePalma says:

    Fili:I love you as well. However, the only song I sing in football stadiums is the Miami Dolphin fight song.;^)

  22. Realist says:

    @Bart,…the only song I sing in football stadiums is the Miami Dolphin fight song.That must have made you extremely popular at Mile High Stadium. And its replacement, which I shall not name because I hate supplying free advertising.

  23. filistro says:

    Bart… I just like to picture you singing :-)Seriously, you must stop fantasizing that I am enduring the “six stages of grief” over this election.I’m really feeling very chipper about it all, for several reasons: 1.)Dems will firmly retain the Senate, which will be SO annoying to the GOP2.) the House seat pickup is going to be about 41. That gives the R’s a teeny-tiny edge… plus the responsibility to stop obstructing and start governing and solving some problems, or this fickle maiden will turn on them as savagely as she just did on the Dems3.) If the GOP doesn’t immediately start slashing in all directions, cutting programs dear to the hearts of most Americans, the crazed Teapers will turn on their own party. Mayhem and bloodshed will ensure. What fun!4.)a whole lot of the annoying Blue Dogs will be gone5.) there will be a goodly number of real, genuine Wingnuts-with-a-capital-W in there for us to giggle at… (and I’m afraid we may be quite intemperate along those lines… ;-)Ahhh, yes. Good times. Bring it on!

  24. DC Petterson says:

    @BartAP just issued this comprehensive poll of LVs covering every notable political issue. I’ll just grab a few highlights out of the report you linked. As usual, it doesn’t quite say what you claim it does.Democrats in Congress are not popular. But Republicans are even less so, by a singificant margin:Overall, please tell me whether you approve … of the way the Republicans / Democrats in Congress are handling their jobs.Republicans: Total approve Tot: 29 LV:28Total disapprove Tot: 69 LV: 72Democrats:Total approve Tot: 36 LV: 32Total disapprove Tot: 62 LV: 67Is there an anti-incumbant wave? I don’t think so:Would you like to see your own member of Congress get re-elected in November, or would you like to see someone else win the election?Own member Tot: 44 LV:49Someone else Tot: 46 LV:43Obama is doing pretty well in the way he is handling issues:And please tell me if you approve, disapprove or neither approve nor disapprove of the way Barack Obama is handling … : (I give the aprpoval numbers, for total and for Likely Voters):The economy… Total approve Tot: 43 LV: 42The situation in Iraq… Total approve 56 53Health care… Total approve 47 46Terrorism… Total approve 60 54The environment…Total approve 59 55Federal budget deficit…Total approve 40 38Energy…Total approve 57 50Taxes…Total approve 46 43Immigration…Total approve 46 43The situation in Afghanistan…Total approve 52 53Relationships with other countries…Total approve 60 55Unemployment…Total approve 45 41Gas prices…Total approve 49 46Education…Total approve 60 55Notice that in natioal defense issues, energy and environmental policy, foreign relations, and education, Obama is doing extremely well. The only places he is under 50% approval are economic issues: the budget, the economy, taxes, and (barely) gas prices. “Health care” is being seen as economic, and a lot of the disapproval is from the left, from people who wanted a single-payer system; and even them, his approval is only 3% below half, despite the incredible pressure from conservative media. Popularity of various public figures is also telling:Do you have a favorable or unfavorable impression of … (Tot and LV are given)?… Barack Obama Total favorable 57 52… Michelle Obama Total favorable 70 65… Hillary Clinton Total favorable 68 65… George W. Bush Total favorable 44 48… Sarah Palin Total favorable 43 49… Nancy Pelosi Total favorable 37 35… John Boehner Total favorable 30 34… Mitch McConnell Total favorable 30 33… Harry Reid Total favorable 28 29Reid is not popular. Boehner and McConnell are less Popular than Pelosi. Barack Obama is well over 50%. Michelle and Hillary (!) are in the stratospheric range. Palin is statistically tied with George Bush(!)

  25. DC Petterson says:

    Here’s something really interesting about the AP poll.When people were asked, “would you describe the financial situation in your own household these days as good, poor, or neither good nor poor?” 67% of them said their personal financial situation is “good.”But when asked, “Would you describe the nation’s economy these days as good, poor, or neither good nor poor?”only 19% said the nation’s economy is “good.”There is a disconnect here. Either people rate their personal situation better than it really is, or the think the national economy is worse than it is, or they are using very different measures for personal vs. national.It seems likely that people are unhappy mostly with the speed of recovery, which is understandable. Though if Tea Party policies are implemented next year, this should slow the recovery still more, and cause a massive backlash against the Republicans in 2012. Of course, if Tea Party policies are not enacted, we can expect to see the far right lash out even more strongly against the Republicans than they did this year.

  26. shrinkers says:

    filistro,The only thing I don’t like about your analogy is that I was always the nerdy geek in high school. But of course, I also was never dumb enough to imagine that the cheerleaders would be as interested in a geek as they are in the football players.What’s really amusing in today’s situation is the glee of the Teapers at the way they are crippling and dismantling their own political party. Bart has even quite excitedly referred to it as a “hostile takeover.”The Teapers are heavily financed by corporate and wealthy interests, and are permeated by ultraconservative religious fanatics. Their fascination with anti-education, anti-intellectual gut-level reactionism is not going to serve the country well. Their goals are not going to be achieved, regardless of the results of the upcoming reaction. It will truly be an amusing two years.robert verdi pointed out, “It was only last year we were being called “the dying demographic” on the verge of oblivion, now we are on the cusp of an extraordinary win.” But the long-term prospect still is for the Republicans as “the dying demographic.” Looking at this as a generational thing, not as the mere fad of the 2010 election, history and demographics are not in the favor of ultraconservative fanatic religious anti-education “gummint BAD!” jingoism.

  27. shrinkers says:

    I meant to say, “Their goals are not going to be achieved, regardless of the results of the upcoming election.” I look forward watching the Teapers hold the Republicans responsible for the failures of the next two years.

  28. shortchain says:

    Morty,I’ve re-read the post a few times and I cannot, however I try, find anything in there that indicates filistro considers anybody “short-sighted and stupid”.Here’s a hint: if you have to twist yourself into a pretzel in order to see something, the problem you see may be in yourself, not in the view.Tasteless and inept metaphors aside, there’s nothing more fickle than the public in assigning blame. If the GOP wins a majority in the House, they’ll be in line to destroy their approval ratings even further. What we’re witnessing is, in fact, the destruction of the GOP. It’s literally tearing itself apart trying to pander to the extreme right wing while simultaneously portraying itself a “populist”.To extend the metaphor, the cheerleader may not be enamored of the geek, and may harbor a crush on the quarterback, but that’s liable to vanish like the quarterback’s chances at the Heisman trophy when it becomes public that he’s been betting against his own team.

  29. filistro says:

    @ shrinkers… The only thing I don’t like about your analogy is that I was always the nerdy geek in high school.Something tells me you weren’t the kind of nerd who would jeer, mock and belittle a rival… and not even realize you were being played the whole time.Besides, there are nerds and then there are nerds. Here is a truly lovely woman who did pretty well for herself by finding and keeping a real nerd…

  30. Alki says:

    Latest tweet from Nate:“When you start to see the “our party is actually better off by losing!!” articles, that’s usually the surest sign of impending doom.” Sorry, guys, but most definitely an unnessary tweet on Nate’s part. I am afraid the boy has gone corporate.

  31. Bart DePalma says:

    BD: “…the only song I sing in football stadiums is the Miami Dolphin fight song.”Realist: “That must have made you extremely popular at Mile High Stadium. “Actually, Denver fans are some of the most civil I have run into. No one threw anything at me when I sang the fight song there, either for the song or my singing.filistro: “Bart… I just like to picture you singing”I have a baritone about the same range, if not quality, as Johnny Cash. I have a lot of fun at football games and am usually losing my voice by the end.As for your election predictions, I agree I was wrong about your being in denial. That is pure delusion, my dear.DC Petterson: “When people were asked, “would you describe the financial situation in your own household these days as good, poor, or neither good nor poor?” 67% of them said their personal financial situation is “good.” But when asked, “Would you describe the nation’s economy these days as good, poor, or neither good nor poor?”only 19% said the nation’s economy is “good.” There is a disconnect here.”The numbers are about right. 2/3 of the nation is doing OK. The 19% who are un or under employed and those who are barely scraping bye are the folks who are not doing well. Then that many folks are out of work, the nation is not doing well.Akili:When Obama and the Dems started blaming the voters for being unappreciative a full month before the election rather than the usual day after a Dem loss, THAT was the surest sign of impending doom.

  32. Alki says:

    @ BartWe’ll see.

  33. GROG says:

    shortchain said:It’s literally tearing itself apart trying to pander to the extreme right wing while simultaneously portraying itself a “populist”.I’m interested in a couple things:1.) What beliefs or attributes do you consider to be “the extreme right wing”?2.) Can you point to some examples of the GOP pandering to what you consider to be the “extreme right wing”?

  34. shrinkers says:

    @BartWhen Obama and the Dems started blaming the voters for being unappreciative Please provide quotes — date, place, actual words — where Obama or any elected Democrat used “blame” and “unappreciative” in the same sentence, when referring to “the voters.” Since you are researching your book, I’m sure you have these quotes at your fingertips.Remember — the name of the speaker, the date, time and place, and the words “blame” and “unappreciative” in the same sentence.

  35. shrinkers says:

    GROGI’m not shortchain, but I’ll take a stab. I’ll only give an example of a single topic. The list is too long.Examples: Sharron Angle talking about “Second Amendment remedies.” Pandering: Not distancing the party from someone like Angle.

  36. filistro says:

    @Alki… Sorry, guys, but most definitely an unnessary tweet on Nate’s part. I am afraid the boy has gone corporate.I absolutely agree. There is a high and positive correlation between the number of hours spent sitting in plush lounges where well-heeled dudes smoke cigars and sip Courvoisier… and the casual ease with which one begins to mock the Democratic party. I’m think Nate may be slipping beyond our reach.(I preferred Pablano 😦

  37. filistro says:

    Can you point to some examples of the GOP pandering to what you consider to be the “extreme right wing”?Terri Schiavo.

  38. shrinkers says:

    @BartThe numbers are about right. 2/3 of the nation is doing OK. The 19% who are un or under employed and those who are barely scraping bye are the folks who are not doing well. Then that many folks are out of work, the nation is not doing well.I agree, the nation is not doing so well. Thank you for reminding us how badly the Republicans screwed things up.I would disagree with the first part of your statement. When wages have been stagnant for 10 years, people are not doing okay. When they are afraid to change jobs because the insurance companies might screw them, they’re not doing okay (although the new HCR bill is going to help a lot there). When 8 million people have been thrown out of work because of Republican policies, so employees are constantly in fear of downsizing and offshoring, they’re dot doing okay. When they’ve maxed out all their credit cards and can’t get any more credit and can barely make their payments, all because of the deregulatory polices and stagnant economy of the Bush years, they’re not doing okay.In contrast to the people who are out of work, I suppose they’re not so bad off. Compared to the top 10% who had 50% of the income increase of the past 10 years, not so much.

  39. filistro says:

    another blatant example of pandering to the extreme right wing.. Republicans vote unanimously against a bill they themselves had previously sponsored because they knew the extreme right wing would punish any sign, however slight, of co-operation with the president.

  40. filistro says:

    pandering to the extreme right wing…The many GOP mainstream politicians who coyly flirt with birtherism.

  41. shortchain says:

    GROG,Glad to help:Right wing beliefs:1. The belief that government is somehow separate from us, the people. Ergo, government must be reduced (except, oddly enough, when it spies on us or takes our money to bribe people in Iraq). To the extreme right wing, all government activity is bad.2. Not all citizens are fully “American”. To the extreme right wing, liberals (defined as those who disagree with the right wing) should be cast out.3. America has been “taken over”. In the extreme version, this includes the entire government. I posted, recently, in another thread, an email sent out by Eric Cantor (R-Va) pandering to exactly this belief.That’ll do for now.1. Objecting to the FDA regulating the producers of food. “Extreme right wing” used to mean calling for the abolition of the Department of Education, but even Jesse Helms never called for gutting the FDA. This is pandering to the idea that government is always the problem, never a solution, which is an extreme right-wing concept.2. DeMint called for defunding NPR over their firing of Juan Williams. This is pandering, plain and simple, similar to the previous item, to the extreme right, which views all government spending other than defense spending as somehow wrong.3. Wide-spread voter suppression efforts, such as the one that Mark Kirk bragged about. In fact, voter suppression (which they pretend is all about preventing “voter fraud”, in spite of having zero actual evidence that it even exists) is the major theme of the local tea party in this cycle.Let’s be clear here. It’s one thing to hope that those who would tend to vote for the opposition stay home on election day. That’s the normal way Republicans used to win elections around here. It’s always been, until recently, a tactic of the extreme right wing to actually intimidate opposition voters, and here we have a GOP senatorial candidate bragging about participating in such an attempt.For other right wing beliefs, take a look at Paul Ryan’s roadmap. Several of them, such as privatizing SS, are extreme.

  42. shortchain says:

    GROG,(overflow)4. Separation of church and state. In the extreme, claiming that America is a “Christian nation” and that there is no separation of church and state implied in the Constitution. (For pandering, see the GOP’s support of any of several candidates, including O’Donnell.)Enough for you?

  43. shortchain says:

    GROG,Thanks to filistro, I think we’ve given you enough to ponder. But we missed a big one:6. The belief that human-caused global warming is somehow a conspiracy. Doubt of the AGW theory, after the weight of decades of research and after the consensus of 98 percent of climate scientists was reached a few years ago, is right wing (pretty far right wing, actually). To go further and hold the belief that 98 percent of the world’s climate scientists are participating in a conspiracy is extreme right wing.Yet we have Inhofe, Cuccinelli actively and violently opposing the science, and 22 of the GOP’s governor candidates this cycle claiming (publicly, at least) that they don’t believe in AGW. This is pandering. They don’t all disbelieve. They’re just pandering to the extreme right wing.

  44. Todd Dugdale says:

    Take a look at this analysis of how Gallup’s LV screen works. Basically, unless you are a raging, frothing maniac about voting, Gallup doesn’t count you.BTW, I notice now that the RW has stopped claiming the tsunami will happen because of all the “socialism” and “tyranny”. It’s about jobs, instead. Hyper-inflation, FEMA camps, gun confiscation, secret Obama thug police, death panels, forced conversion to Islam, “usurper” etc. is all forgotten now. So strange, because the people who espoused these ideas were supposed to be the ones that tip the balance.

  45. shiloh says:

    Again, just the obvious:grog is a masochist as he asks ad nauseam, inane questions …and then very, very, very much enjoys 🙂 easily being buried w/the truth/facts.>at least Bart doesn’t ask stupid questions lol … damned w/faint praise ;)and then there’s Jeffrey who has totally disappeared, go figure, as he must have finally grasped the concept of diminishing returns!, eh.>>>and yes, Nate/Harpo totally sold out some time ago. btw, Nate’s main problem in his quest to be a celebrity is nobody really cares about him er no personality ~ in order to be an infamous cable news pundit many peeps have to love/hate you at the same time ie Billo/Hannity/Beck/Limbo/Olbermann/Rachel etc.Unfortunately for Tweety/Nate et al, nobody cares about them.>We now return you to whatever this thread is about …take care, blessings

  46. Bart DePalma says:

    Extreme right wing principles?filistro: “Republicans vote unanimously against a bill they themselves had previously sponsored because they knew the extreme right wing would punish any sign, however slight, of co-operation with the president.”Translation: Representatives following the will of their constituents is extreme right wing behavior.Shortchain: “The belief that government is somehow separate from us, the people.”Umm… That is the principle underlying our Declaration of Independence, the Tenth Amendment and the Bill of Rights.Shortchain: “Not all citizens are fully “American”. To the extreme right wing, liberals (defined as those who disagree with the right wing) should be cast out.”Translation: Voters removing elected officials who impose leftist policies the voters oppose is extreme right wing behavior.Shortchain: “Objecting to the FDA regulating the producers of food.”Care to expand on that. The major objection to the FDA is usually its sloth in approving drugs and allowing folks to die.Shortchain: “DeMint called for defunding NPR over their firing of Juan Williams.”The government has no business funding a domestic media company especially one that punishes its reporters for their political views. Hardly a radical proposition.Shortchain: “Wide-spread voter suppression efforts, such as the one that Mark Kirk bragged about.”Translation: Enforcing voting fraud laws against Democrats is a radical proposition. Interesting thought after the spanish language wing of the SEIU was just caught with several thousand false voter registrations in my home state of CO and in other locations.Shirtchain: “privatizing SS”Ask folks, especially young folks looking at a loss on their SS, whether they would like to invest a portion of their contributions. A simple savings account return is better than what anyone under 50 like myself can expect from SS.Shorchain: “claiming that America is a “Christian nation””Umm… That is an undisputed demographic fact.Shortchain: “…and that there is no separation of church and state implied in the Constitution.”Actually, outside of the First Amendment’s prohibition on Congress from establishing a state religion, there is no textual basis for the court created legal fiction of a wall between church and state.

  47. Bart DePalma says:

    Shortchain: “The belief that human-caused global warming is somehow a conspiracy.”After Climategate and the IPCC scandals, this contention is increasing easy to prove as a fact.Shortchain: “Doubt of the AGW theory, after the weight of decades of research and after the consensus of 98 percent of climate scientists was reached a few years ago…”Umm… Your research is entirely made up of computer models based upon manipulated temperature data manufactured at the British Climate Research Unit, which the Brits are completely reworking after it was exposed as a fraud.Your consensus is equally bogus as hundreds of the folks cited by the IPCC state that they never saw or signed off on before it was issued. Only a comparative handful of people drafted the IPCC reports under negotiation with several governments.

  48. shrinkers says:

    Oh, Bart, while you’re looking for that quote with “blame” and “voters” and “unappreciative” in the same sentence, we’re still waiting — for many months now! — for you to provide an example of an elected Democrat calling for “surrender.” It’s been a long, long time, Bart. Have you found such a quote yet?

  49. shiloh says:

    Bartles, you’re still irrationally/disingenuously/ignorantly (((spinning))) after almost (3) years at a progressive blog!god love ‘ya! :)take care

  50. shrinkers says:

    Shortchain: “The belief that government is somehow separate from us, the people.”Bart: Umm… That is the principle underlying our Declaration of Independence, the Tenth Amendment and the Bill of Rights.Bart, have you read the Constitution? It begins We the People.

  51. shortchain says:

    Bart,I know it’s your personal belief that you are in the middle of the political spectrum. That’s merely one of your delusional beliefs.You, sir, are an extreme right wing true believer. Live with it.Oh, and Bart? I know you don’t follow other people’s links, or if you do you don’t seem to comprehend what you read there, but the links I provided give adequate explanation to demonstrate the truth of what I stated.

  52. shrinkers says:

    @BartThe government has no business funding a domestic media company especially one that punishes its reporters for their political views. 1) MPR gets about 3% of its funding from the government. 2) I assume you also disapprove of MPR’s decision to disallow its reporters from attending Jon Stewart’s rally on the National Mall next Saturday, right?

  53. Alki says:

    @ filistro…….I’m think Nate may be slipping beyond our reach.****************************************I have to agree. It looks like Nate has turned centrist and is trying to please both sides of the aisles……probably on order from his corp. bosses. Interestingly enough, it looks like its having an impact on his readership…..with less and less readers commenting. Given the midterms are almost upon us, you would expect the inverse would be happening…..that readers and comments would be increasing the closer we get to 2 November. It won’t be the first time that corps have ruined a good thing.

  54. shrinkers says:

    shortchain, filistro, thanks for the listing of right-wing craziness. Set a great trap for Bart. Stepped right into it. Someone actually defending that insanity? Often by misrepresenting your statements… typical, really.

  55. shiloh says:

    The unpredictable electionHighlights:In the past three cycles, I have come pretty close to the mark, no matter whether the outcome was a good GOP year (2004), or a good Democratic year (2006/2008).This time around? I will be the first to admit that I don’t have a freaking clue.This is the most unpredictable election in my memory, and, indeed, I can’t even think of one that rivals it.I’m not alone in that assessment. Just as Nate Silver was projecting a 50-seat gain for the GOP in the House, he couched in the caveat that the uncertainty of the races could mean as small a pickup for the Republicans as 20 seats, and as much as 80 seats. Such a wide range of possible outcomes made a few people smirk at the “prediction.” But from where I sit, that’s a pretty appropriate assessment of the landscape.In short, there are very few outcomes in nine days that would surprise me. And that is because so little about this election cycle is definitively known.~~~~~Indeed, in the last two election cycles, the “registered voter” screen has been closer to the final outcome more often than the “likely voter” screen. And it wasn’t all that close: the RV screen came closer 57% of the time, the LV screen was closer to the truth 38% of the time, and they split the difference 5% of the time.Another unique feature of the electoral cycle has been the width of the gaps between RV’s and LV’s. In the 2006 and 2008 cycles, the majority of the gaps between RVs and LVs consisted of gaps ranging from 0 to 2 points. In this election, gaps as wide as 13 points have been reported (an early October CNN poll of Nevada). Of course that has been owed to the most oft-used phrase of the cycle: the enthusiasm gap. More on that later.~~~~~There is some evidence that such audacious predictions about the R/D gap in the 2010 electorate might be unwarranted, however. Early voting statistics have painted a decidedly different picture of the electorate than what we have been sold by the pollsters and the pundit class for most of the cycle:In California, site of a critical gubernatorial and Senate election, a study by the Atlas Project shows that the early/absentee vote in 2010 has slightly favored Democrats (43-40). In 2006, it was split almost evenly.~~~~~But the bottom line is that if Democrats are able to turn out their voters, then the projections in almost every likely voter screen about the GOP turning out in far greater proportions than the Democrats (thus altering the political landscape) would appear to be unjustified. If that’s the case, the GOP would need a massive, massive edge with Independents to pull off the kinds of gains that they are breathlessly predicting.~~~~~We now return you to Bartles “obsessing” re: his beloved teabaggers!

  56. Bart DePalma says:

    Shiloh:Seriously, I like pitching arguments at progressive blogs to have smart folks like you can attempt to punch holes in them. Preaching to the choir at conservative blogs does not help me refine my arguments.Whoever I fenced with awhile back on Obama’s talking down the economy helped me beef up that chapter of my book. Maybe I should dedicate the book to progressive bloggers? Hmmm…

  57. Bart DePalma says:

    Shortchain: “The belief that government is somehow separate from us, the people.”Bart: “Umm… That is the principle underlying our Declaration of Independence, the Tenth Amendment and the Bill of Rights.”shrinkers: “Bart, have you read the Constitution? It begins We the People.”Yes indeed. A constitution is a leash the People place upon their government to limit its powers. The entire document is a series of checks and balances on government power. This is why progressivism has been engaged in a century long war on the charter.shrinkers: “I assume you also disapprove of MPR’s decision to disallow its reporters from attending Jon Stewart’s rally on the National Mall next Saturday, right?”Apparently, in addition to desiring to keep their reporters off the evil Fox News, they also do not want them to appear as clowns in public.

  58. Bart DePalma says:

    Shiloh:The Kos diarist makes a good case for how Dem media polling slants Dem in both its RV and LV numbers, generally by grossly over-including Dems in their poll weighting. The evil Rasmussen largely pegged the 2006 race.If you limit your poll watching to Ras, Pew and Gallup at the end of an election cycle, you will have a damn good idea how the election will turn out.The kos diarist knows how the election will turn out, he simply does not want to face the facts.

  59. GROG says:

    @shortchain,As Bart has already pointed out, what you think is “extreme far right” is really mainstream. There’s a huge disconnect from reality. Just because you or shrinkers or filistro disagrees with an issue, does not mean it’s “extreme far right”.How is rejecting the fact that global warming is not man made, “extreme far right”? Have you ever seen polling data on the issue? From Gallup:”Now, a significantly diminished 50% say temperature increases are due to human activities, and 46% say they are not.”When 46% of people are on the side of an issue, explain how that is “extreme far right”. http://www.gallup.com/poll/126560/americans-global-warming-concerns-continue-drop.aspxThis is a Christian nation. Far from extreme right wing.Funding should be pulled from NPR. Far from extreme right wing.”Objecting to the FDA regulating the producers of food.” What? Who? shrinkes said:shortchain, filistro, thanks for the listing of right-wing craziness.All you guys have done is illustrate how far left and disconnected you are from the mainstream. If you’re going to list things that are “extreme right wing”, first and foremost they need to be extreme. Next they need to be far right. Thanks for trying.

  60. shrinkers says:

    @Bart – Are you aware of the naked spin on your statements? I’m just curious if you do it on purpose, or if you really are that blind.Yes indeed. A constitution is a leash the People place upon their government to limit its powers. The entire document is a series of checks and balances on government power. This is why progressivism has been engaged in a century long war on the charter.Who is it in the current environment who is advocating armed insurrection against the United States? The left, or the “patriotic” right?Bart, the whole point of a democracy is that the people and the government are one. “We the People” is not just pretty words. Apparently, in addition to desiring to keep their reporters off the evil Fox News, they also do not want them to appear as clowns in public.Apparently, in addition to desiring to keep their reporter away from the evil Comedy Central, NPR also does not want them to appear as clowns in public, thus they felt it necessary to deal with Juan Williams.Bart, merely declaring your viewpoint is not a rational argument. And on Obama and the market — you still have not offered a shred of evidence. And I’m still waiting for those quotes in support of your statements on surrender and on “blaming” voters.Again: Are you aware of your spin? Or are you really that blind?

  61. shrinkers says:

    GROG:All you guys have done is illustrate how far left and disconnected you are from the mainstream. An interesting position. Since you do not view any of the points we raised as being “far right” — what WOULD you view as “far right”?From Gallup:”Now, a significantly diminished 50% say temperature increases are due to human activities, and 46% say they are not.”I’m curious to know if you realize that scientific realities are not voted on, and are not determined by an opinion poll? This is a serious question, I’m not being rhetorical here — are you aware that science does not function either by national polling, or by biblical consultation?

  62. filistro says:

    GROG… calling govt into emergency session to intervene in the private end-of-life decisions of a family regarding a family member with no cerebral cortex… that was pandering to the extreme right wing. When national politicians like David Vitter, Newt Gingrich, JD Hayworth, Sarah Palin and many others… all of whom KNOW better… suggest there “might be something to the birther claims,” that is pandering to the extreme right wing.

  63. shiloh says:

    Bart, glad we’re here to help you in any way we can. :)As always, our overflowing, charitable empathy is at your disposal 24/7!>We are our brother’s keeper. ~ Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.Re: your Socialism tome: Please quote all my intelligent/astute liberal, pro-America, 538 offerings word for word 😉 as you do not want to deny your readers my magnificent words of wisdom!solo estoy diciendotake care

  64. shiloh says:

    SUCCESS: Thank you, your comment has been submitted for moderation.hmm, define success …

  65. shortchain says:

    GROG,A single, cherry-picked poll does not demonstrate anything. The number of people who believe a particular thing will change over the course of time, and, after this year (one of the warmest on record in much of the world), there will probably be more people who recognize the reality next year. In fact, if the same poll were to be given today, you might find a dramatically different result.Of course, there has been a concerted effort this last year on the part of disinformation mavens to confuse the issue — and they’ve succeeded to a shameful degree — but that won’t last for more than a few years.The list filistro and I gathered is neither definitive nor complete. Many extreme right wingers will hold to parts but not all. And of course, “right wing” is a relative term, as is “extreme”. It’s really lucky that we have an illustrative example in our midst.On the other hand, in this country today we have more of a bipolar split on these issues than we have had in decades, as has been documented, largely due to the disappearance of the moderate Republicans.So just because a particular belief is held by 43 percent of the public — or that part of it that has land-lines — doesn’t mean they’re not “extreme”. The other 57 percent may very well be “extreme” on the opposite end of the question.That’s the way the statistical cookie sometimes crumbles. It ain’t always a bell curve.In summary: I stand by the list, with the provisos I just explained.

  66. shrinkers says:

    What GROG and Bart are describing and defending I think, is a shift in the Overton Window. Ideas that were considered insanely right wing only a couple of years ago have been pushed and repeated and bleating so often, that it can today be plausibly claimed that large segments of Americans now embrace them. (Of course that claim, itself, is a far-right wing meme.)It is interesting to note how many Republicans have themselves shifted their public opinions on these matters, over the course of only a few months. As has frequently been pointed out, it is now commonplace for Republicans to oppose their own proposals, to call into question the patriotism of people who continue to support ideas they themselves put forward only a short time ago. That, of course, is the “pandering” we’re talking about.It is a reasonable question — when insane ideas become more widely accepted through endless repetition, are they still insane? Is “sanity” a measure of current norms, or of connection to reality?It’s an interesting point. If the public comes to believe that the Founders were Christians, and meant for us to be a Christian nation, and that the First Amendment does not represent a separation of church and state, does reality and history alter itself to conform to this opinion?When the global temperatures continue to rise due to the continuing production of greenhouse gasses by humans, does an opinion poll, by itself, cause this effect to stop and reverse itself?Just back in the summer of 09, Bart insisted that global climate change was a hoax because the temperature where he lived was cooler than it had been the year before. Now that 2010 is proving to be the hottest year on record, I don’t see him reversing his position.The world used to be flat. The sun used to orbit the Earth. The world used to be only 6000 years old. It used to be true that black people are inferior. Women used to be nearly brainless. All these truths were altered by public opinion, yes?What a strange age we live in.

  67. Realist says:

    @Bart,filistro: “Republicans vote unanimously against a bill they themselves had previously sponsored because they knew the extreme right wing would punish any sign, however slight, of co-operation with the president.”Translation: Representatives following the will of their constituents is extreme right wing behavior.Wrong translation. The casting out to which filistro refers is from society, not from office.And even if you’re right about what she meant, people who are cast out of office for differences of opinion on policy aren’t inherently “un-American.” It is extremist to suggest otherwise.Shortchain: “The belief that government is somehow separate from us, the people.”Umm… That is the principle underlying our Declaration of Independence, the Tenth Amendment and the Bill of Rights.Again, it seems you are misinterpreting the statement, but I think this is because of how shortchain phrased it. It is, rather, the believe that government is somehow the enemy of us, the people, that is at issue here.Shortchain: “Wide-spread voter suppression efforts, such as the one that Mark Kirk bragged about.”Translation: Enforcing voting fraud laws against Democrats is a radical proposition.Correct. Enforcement of voting fraud laws should be applied equally, per the 14th Amendment. To apply it in a partisan fashion is radical.Shorchain: “claiming that America is a “Christian nation””Umm… That is an undisputed demographic fact.Again, you are misinterpreting the statement. It is not a question of demographic, it is a question of the laws of the land. Legally, the United States is absolutely not a “Christian nation.”Actually, outside of the First Amendment’s prohibition on Congress from establishing a state religion, there is no textual basis for the court created legal fiction of a wall between church and state.You know, for a lawyer, you sure have a weak understanding of the laws of our nation. When it is a Supreme Court decision, there is, by definition, no such thing as a “court created legal fiction.” The law of the land is whatever the Supreme Court says it is. You may not like it, but that’s irrelevant. The Supreme Court says that the First Amendment separates church and state, which means that…the First Amendment separates church and state, until the Supreme Court says otherwise.

  68. Realist says:

    @shrinkers,It is a reasonable question — when insane ideas become more widely accepted through endless repetition, are they still insane? Is “sanity” a measure of current norms, or of connection to reality?This was, of course, the topic of The Emperor’s New Clothes. Perhaps there really are people who are comfortable with the idea that, as long as enough people say it, the Emperor is not really naked.

  69. filistro says:

    The very fact that we’re even having this conversation (which I personally find utterly jaw-dropping) is PROOF how much pandering has been done to the extreme right wing.There was a time not too long ago (as shrinkers points out) when we couldn’t have a conversation like this because we couldn’t find anybody to argue the other side. NOBODY… not even really ardent Republicans… believed the kind of nonsense that has now become “mainstream” on the right.It’s happened gradually.. like boiling the frog… so we’re not even all that surprised when supposedly sane Republicans turn up espousing this really way-out stuff.Actually… I say it’s happened gradually because we haven’t been all that conscious of it until it’s reached critical mass, but really it’s been a fairly abrupt shift. I believe Ronald Reagan would not even recognize what right-wing America has become.And he would DETEST Sarah Palin.

  70. shortchain says:

    shrinkers,Reality does not conform to belief. Unfortunately, belief all-too-often does not conform to reality either. When, as in the present time, too large a percentage of the population has delusional beliefs, such as that the goths will never dare to sack Rome, or that we’re safe behind our oceanic barriers from attack, or that lowering taxes on the wealthy will produce more jobs for the middle class, then there will be the piper to pay.But the world was never flat, nor did the Sun orbit the Earth. Childbed fever was not just an unfortunate accident, but caused by the belief that “cleanliness was out of place”. Abstinence-only sex education will never succeed as well as a reality-based approach to teaching the young what they need to know for their own safety. Belief in falsehoods and taking refuge in delusions ultimately does not advance the human condition.There will be a reaction to the current idiocy, and we’ll see a correction. Unfortunately, we will all be poorer for having wasted wealth and, more seriously, time, indulging the delusions of the right.

  71. Michael Weiss says:

    Bart, there’s a response to you on http://blog.538refugees.com/2010/10/11/health-insurance-isnt-really-insurance-at-all.aspx waiting for you.GROG, I noticed that you have been VERY quiet in my articles. Are you here just for partisan sniping?

  72. GROG says:

    @MW,No. I’m not here just for partisan sniping. I’m here for discussion and I think I sparked a discussion on an interesting topic.

  73. shortchain says:

    Realist,Bart’s blather about “enforcing voting fraud laws” is a completely dishonest portrayal of what I referred to. The link I gave clearly shows that what was intended was not “enforcement” of anything, but a deliberate attempt to suppress opposition turnout.I expect poor reading comprehension from Bart. It’s pretty much his theme song. But I do hope that it isn’t contagious.

  74. filistro says:

    GROGGY… just to humor me because we’re friends :-)… please acknowledge that national-level politicians embracing birtherism is an example of mainstream Republicans pandering to the extreme right wing.Thank you.

  75. GROG says:

    shortchain said:”A single, cherry-picked poll does not demonstrate anything.”No, not cherry picking. (sigh) http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/environment_energy/energy_updateCause for global warming:Human 39%Planetary 42%Other 7%shrinkers said:”I’m curious to know if you realize that scientific realities are not voted on, and are not determined by an opinion poll? This is a serious question, I’m not being rhetorical here — are you aware that science does not function either by national polling, or by biblical consultation?”You’re missing the point. Half the people don’t buy the science you’re peddling, therefore it’s not an “extreme far right” position. There are mountains of scientific evidence to the contrary of yours. There is not a scientific consensus proving AGW.

  76. Michael Weiss says:

    GROG, you said “I’m here for discussion and I think I sparked a discussion on an interesting topic.”So I guess you are in favor of the ARRA and PPACA, eh?

  77. Alki says:

    @Bart………..Translation: Representatives following the will of their constituents is extreme right wing behavior.****************************************I see Italy worked to your detriment……you’ve become as full of yourself as the typical Italian in Rome.A word of caution…….its never good to count your chickens before they hatch. Secondly, if anything, GOP policies have become more extreme in the past two years than ever before…..and more crazy. Thirdly, the party itself is in more disarray than ever……in fact, it may become a minority party in CO after this election. Fourthly, the GOP brand is no more loved than it was a year ago.I suggest you thank your lucky stars that the economic disaster that Bush put into motion turned out to be the worst since the Depression and that its given your party a second wind and covered up the ugly fractures. But should you win, you all would be foolish to see it as a mandate. You have still not become a party of the 21st century and at the rate you’re going, CO may not be an outlier but a new trend. One last thing……whatever you all win on 2 November we’re taking back in 2012. Have a good week! 😉

  78. shrinkers says:

    And you missed my question, GROG. Were you aware that public opinion polling does not determine scientific fact? That’s my question, and you avoided it.

  79. shiloh says:

    ok, finally figured out what this thread is about:The continuing, mostly fruitless 😉 attempt at educating Bart/grog …carry on

  80. shrinkers says:

    Oh and to that point, GROG,There is not a scientific consensus proving AGW.The “scientific consensus” (which does, in fact, exist) does not “prove” AGW. The facts and evidence do.Again: are you aware that scientific fact is not decided by vote?

  81. Realist says:

    @GROG,You’re missing the point. Half the people don’t buy the science you’re peddling, therefore it’s not an “extreme far right” position. There are mountains of scientific evidence to the contrary of yours. There is not a scientific consensus proving AGW.I’m sorry, what was the point? You listed four in three sentences:1) Half the people don’t believe it, and therefore it’s not extreme.2) There are mountains of contrary evidence.3) There isn’t scientific consensus4) Whatever consensus there might be doesn’t prove AGWNow, which one of these was the point?

  82. GROG says:

    @fili,David Vitter is the only person you named who even holds a political office. Is he the only Republican birther who is “pandering to the extreme right”?

  83. shiloh says:

    Again grog, you ask a lot of really, really stupid questions!

  84. shrinkers says:

    GROG, you didn’t answer filistro’s question. She asked,… please acknowledge that national-level politicians embracing birtherism is an example of mainstream Republicans pandering to the extreme right wing.I’m also curious to hear your reaction to that question.But it’s not just Vitter. It’d be tiresome to list them all. How abotu Boehner?http://www.pensitoreview.com/2010/09/01/boehner-invites-birther-radio-host-to-broadcast-from-house-speakers-office-on-election-night/or Charles Boustany (R-La.) http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0909/Boehner_defends_Boustany.htmlSo: is this, or is it not, pandering to far-right extremism?

  85. filistro says:

    GROG… you really, truly disappoint me. I’m well accustmed to weasel words from other, but I thought you were different and would admit when you’re wrong. Anyhow… here’s a list of 17 elected Republicans who express birther views themselves or support those who do. Not that it matters, I guess. You’ve already shown your true colors on this… :-(Damn.

  86. shiloh says:

    Second attempt …@BartlesSeriously, I like pitching arguments at progressive blogs to have smart folks like you can attempt to punch holes in them. Preaching to the choir at conservative blogs does not help me refine my arguments.~~~~~Bart, glad we’re here to help you in any way we can. :)As always, our overflowing, charitable empathy is at your disposal 24/7!>We are our brother’s keeper. ~ Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.Re: your Socialism fiction tome: Please quote all my intelligent/astute liberal, pro-America, 538 offerings word for word 😉 as you do not want to deny your readers my magnificent words of common sense wisdom!solo estoy diciendotake care

  87. Alki says:

    @ flistro……It’s happened gradually.. like boiling the frog… so we’re not even all that surprised when supposedly sane Republicans turn up espousing this really way-out stuff.****************************************What we’re seeing is desperation. Two years ago, the Rs had nothing. The Teapers came along and gave them a reason to live. They truly believe the Teapers have brought new life to the party. How they can think a movement that can be dated back to Joe McCarthy will make the party whole again is beyond me? But believe they do. So even the sane Rs are grasping hungrily to a teaper teabag. Frankly, I think its just another level on their way down to their bottom.

  88. shortchain says:

    GROG,There are frequently trees with two wormy cherries on them. That doesn’t mean all cherries on all trees are and will always be wormy.I don’t actually put much faith in Rasmussen Reports. The wording of their questions is too easily misinterpreted, and I don’t have a lot of faith in their sample selection methodology. For example on the wording: what does it mean when someone agrees with “global warming is primarily caused by long-term planetary trends”. You know, humans have been around on this planet for at least 6000 years (more if you’re not a brain-dead fundamentalist, but I repeat myself), which is “long-term” and “planetary”.We’ll let things cook for a few more years. I’m patient. The planet, and the vulnerable species thereon, may not be so, but if you don’t want to listen to the people who understand these things a lot better than you ever will, that’s not my lookout.Again: the list was not meant to be definitive! Denial of AGW is just one symptom. Right-wing extremism is a complex and multifaceted phenomenon, people are all different. Insanity takes many forms.

  89. shrinkers says:

    @filistroNot that it matters, I guess. You’ve already shown your true colors on this..GROG and Bart are in the same position the rest of the Republicans are in. They have to defend the most absurd things, do so with a straight face, and pretend they are not spouting complete nonsense. If they stray from the new orthodoxy, they risk excommunication, or worse. The “enthusiasm” of the Teapers is based on some truly schizoid and paranoid fantasies. The mundane real world is far less entertaining, and requires a lot more work. And is changing in ways they really don’t understand very well.Acknowledgment of the disconnect from reality would cause the whole house to crash down. Such an epiphany is not going to happen any time soon.

  90. shiloh says:

    @Alkianother level on their way down to their bottom.~~~~~James Stewart ~ Shenandoah: He’s the only man I know that started at the bottom and went down in the world. He’d steal horses for nothing and now he gets paid for it …

  91. shrinkers says:

    shiloh linked a fascinating article on dkos.filistro has frequently brought up the subject of what happens on the day after. I’m thinking about it as well. I have no insights to offer. But since we’ve been talking about the paranoid schizoid nature of the Teaper orthodox catechism, it could get scary if the biblical tsunami doesn’t happen.How do the Teapers react if only, say, 20 Democratic seats go red? What happens if the Republicans don’t gain control of either chamber? Do they invent fantasies about voter fraud and SEIU intimidation? Do they go into armed rebellion? Do they phase up the violence at town hall meetings?Last week, two Democratic lawmakers got white powder in the mail. Are we about to see more of this?Of course, I’m not certain it’ll be better if the historic disaster does happen. Will the far right be emboldened? If some of their pet legislation doesn’t pass, or gets vetoed, will that trigger the rebellion? Heck, will successes lead lead them to believe they have no constraints at all?Any opinions?

  92. filistro says:

    @shrinkers re: the day after…I can only speak for the Freepers… but after tonight’s conversation about “extremism” with Bart and GROG, I have to say I can’t see a dime’s worth of difference between the views of those two supposed “mainstream” Republicans and the views of the Freepers… so I think in reality they’re all Freepers now. If they don’t win at least one house, there will be violence. The Freepers are building themselves up for a massive victory (just like Bart is) and if they fail they will truly believe the election has been stolen from them. It will be ugly… more so because I can’t think of a single viable authority figure in the party anymore who could step forward and quell violence. There are no respected grownups in the Republican party anymore, they’ve all either been purged or joined the crazies. The wingers will be less dangerous if they win… because then their passion is going to turn inward against their own party. They view winning this election as getting just halfway to their goal. Immediately after taking the House they want to repeal Obamacare, roll back all other major peeces of legislation and purge “RINO’s” from committees and positions of power, installing Teapers in their place.If this doesn’t begin happening fast enough to suit them, there will be civil war that will lay waste the entire party. And of course the whole thing will be complicated by the nomination process, which is also going to nakedly expose the new face of Republicanism. I fear we will be living in interesting times.

  93. shiloh says:

    Regardless, hopefully Texas actually does secede from the Union …Just sayin’

  94. shiloh says:

    btw, before TX secedes, all govt. jobs ie U.S. military bases, NASA, govt. contractors/assistance etc. will be re-located to Blue states, eh :)ie The Lone Star state will be truly all alone er in a teabagger bubble lol

  95. shrinkers says:

    @filistroImmediately after taking the House they want to repeal Obamacare, roll back all other major peeces of legislationOf course, with only the House, they won’t be able to repeal anything. They wouldn’t anyway, because Obama would veto it. And despite Bart’s dreams about the House simply not supplying funds, most of the Health Care bill is funded automatically, and would require a change to the law to de-fund it — a change which will not pass in the Senate. So the Health Care legislation will stay in place. This will drive the Freepers and Teapers batshit, because they (like Bart) don’t actually believe in the rule of law, and will insist laws can (and should) be ignored.

  96. shiloh says:

    Also, the Bush41 savings and loan crisis bailout of the late ’80s ~ (((160 billion))), most of it having to do w/the oil industry in Texas going belly-up needs to be repaid to the tax payers in all the other states …and thenand thenand thenwe will gladly let TX secede! ;)>All accounts to be settled at theend of the day’s trading, without exception. ~ Trading Places

  97. Scott says:

    I hate that I was gone all day and didn’t get a chance to follow this thread. I can’t be expected to catch up on 100 comments, can I? 🙂

  98. Realist says:

    Don’t worry, Scott, there’s a ton of repetition. There’s also a ton of repetition.

  99. Alki says:

    The midterms are not even over before the schisms start to appear in the GOP.Huckabee blasts Rove, ‘elitist’ GOP establishment Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee today broadened the assault on the Republican Party establishment — and former Bush adviser Karl Rove in particular — levied recently by Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh, blasting the “elitism” and “country club attitude exhibited by Rove and others who dismissed Delaware Senate nominee Christine O’Donnell.”I was very disappointed in some, particularly Karl and others, who were so dismissive of Christine O’Donnell,” Huckabee told Aaron Klein on the latter’s WABC radio show Sunday.”Unfortunately, there is an elitism within the Republican establishment,” Huckabee told Klein. “And it’s one of the reasons the Republicans have not been able to solidify not only the tea party movement but solidify conservatives across America.””It’s about, again, to be blunt, the kind of country club attitude that we’re not sure there are certain people we really want as members of the club and we’re not going to vote them in. And we don’t mind showing up to events to put up signs and making phone calls and going door to door making those pesky little trips that we don’t like to do, but we really don’t want them dining with us in the main dining room,” he said.Huckabee’s resentments date back to his 2008 presidential bid, which drew dismissal and even paid attacks from a Wall Street-backed GOP establishment that favored Mitt Romney and others and saw Huckabee as suspect on taxes.”I’ve been on the receiving end of some of that when I ran for president. A lot of the establishment types were very contemptuous toward me and treated me like some backwater,” Huckabee said. “And that’s one of the things that happens when you didn’t go to the right school and you’re not a regular [attendee] at the proper cocktail parties on the D.C. social circuit.”http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1010/Huckabee_blasts_Rove_elitist_GOP_Establishment_.html#

  100. shiloh says:

    @Realistthere’s a ton of repetition. There’s also a ton of repetition.~~~~~lol that’s internet political debate in a nutshell, eh as there’s nothing new under the sun. One just repeats oneself over and over and over again, especially winger trolls at a progressive blog.Bartles has developed spamming into a fine art! ;)At Joker’s “we” used to say, oh great, another ad nauseam, scorched earth discussion on abortion/creationism etc. that will go absolutely nowhere.>Indeed, the entertainment value is all about how many red herrings, ad hominems, non sequiturs, straw men, etc. conservatives use in said discussion …

  101. shortchain says:

    To introduce a new topic, perhaps we could get GROG or Jeff to give us a list of positions that is indicative of “left-wing extremism”.I’d suggest that saying such things as “socialism” is insufficient, as that word no longer has any meaning — at least to the right wing.

  102. shortchain says:

    spam filter service requested on aisle 1.

  103. GROG says:

    @fili,I think the election is getting to you. It seems like you, shrinkers, shortchain and your pals are the verge of a nervous breakdown bordering on insanity. If you really think the things we discussed last night are extreme right wing view points, then you need to spend less time on Daily Kos, Huff Post, NPR, and Freeperville. Step away from the internet for a day. Get out and talk to some real people. Shake some hands. Get to know them. Get connected with viewpoints of ordinary Americans. You’ll see that your viewpoints are much more extreme than ours. If they don’t win at least one house, there will be violence.Wow. Fear monger much? And you think it’s our side who’s going insane?

  104. shortchain says:

    GROG,My viewpoints may be extreme, but I take solace in the knowledge that they are at least based on demonstrable facts, a knowledge of history, and an understanding of human nature.When it’s considered extremist to be reality-based, I’ll be out there at the far end.But I don’t think there’ll be violence on a grand scale. Nah, the usual lone gunman or small group of crazies, that’ll be it. Looking at the organizational skills and makeup of the TP crowd, the only place it’ll be dangerous is if Scooters-R-Us has a 2PM half-price sale.

  105. Bart DePalma says:

    shrinkers wrote: “And despite Bart’s dreams about the House simply not supplying funds, most of the Health Care bill is funded automatically, and would require a change to the law to de-fund it — a change which will not pass in the Senate.”There is no such thing as automatic funding. Every program, even entitlements, must be refunded every year.

  106. shortchain says:

    I believe what Bart means is that the operation of the federal government must be funded every year. Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid pay entitlements their own way through the trust fund and through channeled tax revenues and need not be re-funded, but of course, the people who send out the checks have to be funded every year.So the GOP could simply refuse to re-fund the government, or try to de-fund the Social Security Administration through the budget. The money would still come in, but could not be paid out.The right-wing mind at work.

  107. shrinkers says:

    GROG,You still haven’t answered any of the questions.1) If the views we presented, are not extreme, then can you give us an example of what would be an extreme right-wing position? 2) Are you aware that scientific fact is not determined by popularity polls or biblical consultation, but rather by evidence and logic?3) Will you acknowledge that national-level politicians embracing birtherism is an example of mainstream Republicans pandering to the extreme right wing?Still waiting …

  108. filistro says:

    3) Will you acknowledge that national-level politicians embracing birtherism is an example of mainstream Republicans pandering to the extreme right wing?Apparently GROG thinks birtherism is just fine, not extreme at all, and what we really need is to “get out there and get connected with the viewpoints of ordinary Americans.”Like I said, they’re ALL Freepers now. And they want to run the country.

  109. shrinkers says:

    @shortchainI believe what Bart means is that the operation of the federal government must be funded every year.Ah. So he wants to shut down big chunks of the government. Well, duh. He thinks gubmint iz bad.Despite Bart’s wet dreams, the Senate can insert anything it wants into a bill that originated in the House. When the House and the Senate have differing versions of the same bill, they have to be reconciled in committee. If there is a government shutdown, it’ll happen there.In any case, I recall reading an analysis but a legislative staffer of Bart’s fantasy. I don’t recall the details — I wish I did — but it was plain Bart’s imaginings won’t work, because of the way the bill was assembled. It cannot simply be de-funded. Though your description may be a tactic they’d try.

  110. shrinkers says:

    In any case, I recall reading an analysis but a legislative staffer of Bart’s fantasy. Boy, that was poorly written. Embarrassing. I meant to say that I recall reading a legislative staffer’s analysis of that fantasy. I still need more coffee.

  111. shortchain says:

    I guess some posts never come back from moderation.The gist was that I suggested that GROG or Jeff could give us a list equivalent to the one we built for right-wing extremist positions laying out left-wing extremist positions.I suggest that simply saying “socialism” is insufficient, as that word has no meaning anymore. In fact, I suggest laying out the list with descriptions and specifying where the “extreme” part comes in.Just a suggestion of course…

  112. GROG says:

    @shrinkers,1.) All government activity is bad.2.) Yes I am. That was never the point however.3.) By my count there are 242 Republican Senators, House Reps, and state Governors. You’ve managed to find a leftwing website that lists 17 Republicans who don’t claim to be completely confident Obama is a natural born citizen.Most of the “proof” salon.com cites are expamples of the listed Republicans answering questions asked to them. Is answering a question from Chris Matthews considered pandering? A few of them are outspoken about it. Maybe less than 3% of all Republicans are outspoken about the issue. Hardly pandering by the GOP. My original question on the issue was: Can you point to some examples of the GOP pandering to what you consider to be the “extreme right wing”?Thanks for trying.

  113. GROG says:

    @fili,I don’t think birtherism is find. And I don’t think the GOP is using birtherism to pander to the extreme far right either. Birtherism is a non issue to the right. Like Obama’s race, it always seems to be the left who brings up the issue. It’s an example of the Democratic Party pandering to the far left. Trying to stoke the fire on issues that are really non issues.

  114. filistro says:

    GROG… your precise question was:2.) Can you point to some examples of the GOP pandering to what you consider to be the “extreme right wing”?I showed you documented cases of 17 elected Republicans who, given the opportunity, either embraced birtherism or refused to disavow it.Your response was to hedge, weasel and equivocate. You are not honest enough to acknowledge that these are indeed “some examples of the GOP pandering to… the “extreme right wing.”I see no reason for me to talk to you any further.

  115. shortchain says:

    Maybe for laughs we could get GROG to give us examples of what he thinks are the positions at the opposite end of the political spectrum.

  116. GROG says:

    @fili,You disappoint me. You hedged, weaseled, and equivocated by even bringing up the birther issue. 17 Republicans (7%) hardly make up or is a representation of the GOP. All you could come up with was one obscure issue that is of no importance whatsoever to the GOP. It’s not a policy issue or an ideology. It’s nothing. Yet you on the left try to make it into something because you have nothing else.Then you pull a Joy Behar on me and walk out. You’re better than that.

  117. shiloh says:

    @hyperbolic/childish grogI think the election is getting to you. It seems like you, shrinkers, shortchain and your pals are the verge of a nervous breakdown bordering on insanity. ~~~~~Projection is thy name and again damn nice “we” continue to play your ad nauseam absurdity/nonsense!Birtherism is a non issue to the right. Like Obama’s race, it always seems to be the left who brings up the issue. It’s an example of the Democratic Party pandering to the far left. Trying to stoke the fire on issues that are really non issues.~~~~~As grog brings up Obama’s race lol. btw, Obama was freely elected w/(((69.5 million votes))), many southern Dems and yes, northern Dems and some Reps etc. overcoming their past fears and prejudices and voting for the first African/American president 🙂 Barack Hussein Obama, the 44th President of the United States of America!Whereas pandering would be Reps picking a token, unqualified African/American, laughable Michael Steele, to be their RNC chairmen as a smallish, totally racial response to Obama becoming president.>Did I mention one repeats themselves at a political blog as when winger trolls continue to talk nonsense they need to be corrected, eh.Again, liberals showing their empathy 😉 as grog has been in wayyy over his head since day (1) at 538, w/his over the top, nonsensical generalizations …take care, blessings

  118. filistro says:

    GROG… one more try. (Maybe there’s still a stand-up guy in there somewhere.)SO:… If elected Republicans either embrace or refuse to disavow birtherism when given the chance, is that or is it not an example of the GOP pandering to the extreme right?No numbers, no weasel words, just yes or no.

  119. shiloh says:

    It was grog who once asked me how could I be an Ohio State football fan knowing their coach, Jim Tressel, was a die hard Rep.Oh the humanity lolAccordingly 😉 my answer: Tressel could be an Islamo-Fascist as long as he continues to beat Michigan 🙂 btw, OSU has won 8 of 9 under Tressel.>Again grog, how can you function on a daily basis knowing you are surrounded by liberals …take care

  120. shortchain says:

    GROG,Actually, the way the discussion went was that you asked for some positions that were “extreme right wing”. We did so.You then proceeded to carp and cavil, to focus on a couple of them, pretending that those were the sum total of what we gave you.A classic case of moving the goal-posts.You may not think all the issues were exclusively right-wing, and we’d agree, I’m sure. But that wasn’t the point.It would be almost as easy to list the GOP candidates this season who didn’t pander to some extreme right-wing position or group. In fact, why don’t you tell us which GOP politicians do not pander to some extreme right wing position?

  121. GROG says:

    file said:”SO:… If elected Republicans either embrace or refuse to disavow birtherism when given the chance, is that or is it not an example of the GOP pandering to the extreme right?”No because you’re making a sweeping generalization of who the GOP is.

  122. filistro says:

    Here’s the first goal of the new Freeper-Teaper party as soon as they take control of the House… Speaker Jim DeMint. Won’t this be fun?

  123. shiloh says:

    DeMint is a senator or at least was elected by the fine people of SC as a senator …btw, I think bachmann would make a fantastic Speaker of the House!Just sayin’

  124. filistro says:

    DeMint is a senator or at least was elected by the fine people of SC as a senator …OOOPS! Thanks shiloh. (I’m so embarrassed :-(Bart’s got it right, this election is beginning to rot my brain. (Case in point… I just typed the words “Bart’s got it right…” :-)So… who DO the Teapers push for as Boehner’s replacement? Bacause they’re certainly not going to allow Boehner to hold that position.

  125. shortchain says:

    As the teabaggers are about to discover, once they’ve elected these people they’ll have no say whatsoever in who gets chosen as Speaker of the House.

  126. filistro says:

    @shortchain: As the teabaggers are about to discover, once they’ve elected these people they’ll have no say whatsoever in who gets chosen as Speaker of the House.Exactly right. And that’s when the internecine warfare will begin. These are people who have no idea how the game is played… and, as far as I can see, no desire to learn, either. They just want to keep YELLING and PUSHING for everything to be THEIR way.On the bright side… post-election, the GOP is going to be so busy with its civil war, it won’t have the chance to do much damage to the country.

  127. shortchain says:

    filistro,That’s your innate optimism speaking. Most of the teabaggers are authoritarian followers, and, when they’ve screamed and yelled and they’ve been told they’ve got their way, they’ll meekly fall into line behind the authoritarian “alpha dogs” who run their organization.I predict no internecine warfare. Contrary to what Bart blathers, if the GOP gets delivered the House, they’ll be perfectly happy with absolutely no real progress in their goals, and cheer as the GOP “investigates” the administration into obvlivion. It’s all about identifying the “other” and shutting them out, you see.

  128. filistro says:

    shortchain… for the first time ever, I disagree with you. (But just a tiny bit :-)I spend hours amongst the Freepers, studying them and making field notes. I know what they expect, and what they will (and won’t) stand for. You’re quite right that It’s all about identifying the “other” and shutting them out… but the thing is, they have a new “Other”… and it’s RINO’s. When they’re in power I predict they won’t be worrying about subpoenas. They will be hunting RINO’s. They are actually more invested in purging their own party than in defeating Dems… that explains the choice of Christine O’Donnell, which they still don’t regret one bit even though they KNOW Castle would have been a shoo-in. It’s really quite bizarre.And that’s why I’m really quite sanguine about their takeover of the House. Dems have little to fear from this bunch. They’re locked and loaded and set to destroy their OWN party… a stellar entertainment for which we will all have ringside seats.

  129. shortchain says:

    filistro,My experience with the kind of people these teabaggers represent indicates that what they’re really after is scalps, not meat. They’ll count coup on a few Democrats and they’ve already taken a few trophies — Republicans primaried out of office.Once they’ve had their show, they’ll fall in line behind their party and go back to sucking down Oxygen and cashing their retirement checks.That’s my prediction, but you could very well be right. Only a few weeks before it starts to become clear just what we’re dealing with.

  130. Todd Dugdale says:

    We don’t have to wait until then to “see what we are dealing with”. Just look at this.Is beating up a woman at the KY Senate debate “extreme”? Or is it “Christian”? No, it’s kicking a woman in the head after you’ve beaten her to the ground that really illustrates conservative values. I guess that Obama drove them to it, with all of the socialism and tyranny. They had no choice.

  131. Blog says:

    Blog

    […] something about blog[…]

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