“The Other” (The Constitutional Right to be a Dumbass)


I debated posting this but the picture spoke to me. This is the mother of Specialist Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan. He served and died in Iraq in the US Army. He was an early teen when the World Trade Center was attacked. He waited until he was of age and joined the US Army in order to go to war and fight al Quaeda. That’s not a Christian Cross or a Star of David on his tombstone. It’s the Crescent of Islam. I get angry at the anti-Islam sentiment fomented by right wing talking heads spills out and I hear them say really dumbass stuff. When I hear their statements of hatred or ignorance I would just like for them to remember…Corporal Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan sacrificed his life for your right to be a dumbass.

by Mr. Universe

“The Other” (Fear of a Non-White Planet)

 Obama’s presidency has brought out the ugly in American politics. It was historical; it was transformational to millions of Americans, yet it has become problematic for others. A black man as president. Sounded great in theory but reprehensible in reality. It couldn’t be taken seriously. I mean, c’mon. A brother with a finger on the nuclear button? Shouldn’t we have  some crusty old white guy in that position? We always had that until now. But now that you mention it, the old white guys haven’t always done an impeccable job, have they? They’ve come close to total annihilation on a couple of occasions.

White people seem to have a bit of a purity complex. They think they own the place. They have a sense of entitlement that makes the presumption that white is right. Trouble is, they’re being outbred.  African Americans, and Latino Americans are catching up with them. Even Muslim Americans are beginning to outpace them.Their ‘Leave it to Beaver’ world is an illusion that is rapidly fading. (full disclosure: I’m white, non-Christian, and campaigned hard for Obama in 2008).

The latest permutation of this entitlement is ‘Islamophobia’; a fear of all things Muslim. The media isn’t helping either.They were falling all over themselves to whip the world into a frenzy over the dude in Florida who threatened to burn Qu’rans. Newt Gingrich has some kind of a movie or PSA out about it now. A sort of snuff film using 9/11 footage to stir up anti-Islamic fear. ‘These people aren’t like you’ is the underlying message. ‘Be afraid’.

I’m a little tired of the message of fear. I don’t reallywant to live in a world like that. I’ve met Muslims and they’re not all that scary. Aside from a penchant for foot washing they seem to foster all the same beliefs of other religions. Love thy neighbour, don’t be an asshole, do good stuff, etc. What’s to be afraid of?

I’m actually more afraid of Christian fundamentalists. Such a religion of absolutes. Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour or burn in hell for all eternity. Oh, and we have the Bomb; keep that in mind. Reminds me a little of Dr. Strangelove.


Is this world you want to live in? One of intolerance and fear? Yeah, me neither. This fear feeding frenzy has got to stop. 

Back in the day, oceans divided us. But that’s no longer the case. We are one people, one planet. We can no longer fear each other just because we don’t look the same. We have to learn to live together or we will face the alternative and all perish together. I don’t know about you, but I prefer the former.

 


About Mr. Universe

Mr. Universe is a musician/songwriter and an ex-patriot of the south. He currently lives and teaches at a University in the Pacific Northwest. He is a long distance hiker who has hiked the Appalachian Trail and the Pacific Crest Trail. He is also an author and woodworker. An outspoken political voice, he takes a decidedly liberal stance in politics.
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95 Responses to “The Other” (The Constitutional Right to be a Dumbass)

  1. shiloh says:

    Mentioned at the old site re: 9/11 and the hatemonger Republican childish flavor of the day at the time was anti-French sentiment ie freedom fries etc.btw, do Reps know how childish they look when they go on one of their racist, disingenuous rampages …Anyway, served on U.S.S. Comte de Grasse DD-974 named after a French Admiral who helped the Founding Fathers during the Revolutionary War.And of course The Statue of Liberty, a gift from the people of France is an enduring symbol of freedom in America.Again, do Reps know how childish they look when they go on one of racist, disingenuous rampages …And of course the Muslim Mosque situation is becoming a matter of life and death re: our military in the Middle East. Indeed, The Founding Fathers would be soooo proud of the current Rep party! 😦

  2. shiloh says:

    Oops, didn’t close a bold tag so the entire thread will be in bold.So one more time: Do Reps know how childish they look when they go on one of their racist, disingenuous rampages …carry on

  3. filistro says:

    There are entities which, by definition, require other entities in order to exist. Parasites need a host. Hunters need a quarry. And Republicans need an enemy. Without some group to hate and fear, they are rudderless. During the brief historical epochs when they’ve had no specific enemy on which to focus, Republicans have just drifted around ineffectually. Once they find a new enemy they become sharper and more focused, because hatred and fear is the fuel that drives their ideology and their politics.Muslims are simply the “enemy du jour.” It’s not pleasant for them… it’s never pleasant for whatever group the Republicans decide to cast as their current enemy. Muslims can only comfort themselves with the knowledge that the hatred is largely ginned up for political effect, and it won’t be lasting. When Muslims eventually lose their ability to be effective as the current bogeyman, Republican attention will shift elsewhere. (Right now, this latest outburst of Islamophobia is at least giving the poor Mexicans a little break.)I predict the Chinese are in line to be the next feared and hated enemy of the day… but the Muslims and Mexicans will likely be in the center of the dodge-ball ring for another decade or so before that happens.

  4. filistro says:

    You all know how much I love analogies, so here’s one I’ve been thinking of lately. Let’s say (for purpose of scale) you live in a little town of 5,000 people. A group of zealots from some obscure European Catholic sect bomb a clinic in your town that’s suspected of performing abortions, and several people are killed. A truly horrible and shattering event in the life of a little town… but would this mean there should never be a new Catholic church built in your town? Or, if there is one, it has to be A CERTAIN DISTANCE AWAY from the site of the bombed clinic…. wouldn’t that just be too silly for words?So… tell me how the “Ground Zero” controversy is any different from this analogy.

  5. Jeff says:

    filistro,Your analogy is interesting — but fatally flawed. Remember a few years ago when some nuns wanted to build a retreat near Auschwitz? Remember the outcry? Would it have been hunky dory in 1951 to sit by and have a Shinto shrine built in the shadow of Pearl Harbor, overlooking the Arizona? Or would that have been offensive?Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it can’t be offensive. You might want to read Samuel Huntington’s “Clash of Civilizations.” The facts of the matter are quite simple: the bulk of terrorism throughout the world, the bulk of conflicts throughout the world, are between Muslims and their neighbors. Go to Malmo in Sweden, the towns around Paris, Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Israel, Northern Nigeria, Southern Sudan, the Philipines, Thailand, Indonesia.Your analogy of an “obscure Catholic sect” is flawed because there aren’t obscure Catholic sects creating bombings all around the world. There isn’t a whole lot of support in the Catholic hierarchy or laity for bombings. There is in Islam, both among the laity and clergy.I’m not a Catholic, and there is a fair amount of Catholic doctrine I don’t agree with, but they don’t believe in stoning women. A few years ago we spent taxpayer dollars on “Piss Christ,” so-called “art” that involved a crucifix in a jar of urine. I didn’t see the Vatican calling for Holy War.I’m from New York. My wife lost several friends in the World Trade Center. They have a right to be offended and pained by this. Good citizens, like the Inman professes to be, don’t insist on causing their neighbors pain.When Muslims start ACTING like adherents of the “religion of peace,” and when Christians can open churches in Mecca, and when cartoonists don’t have to go into hiding, it will be time for a mosque in lower Manhattan.And no, Republicans don’t need “enemies” to exist, any more than good-hearted liberals need the rich, corporations, taxpayers, and the poor sods who bitterly cling to guns and God to bash. Let me give YOU an analogy…. Suppose a group of Tennessee citizens decided to build a memorial to their ancestors who fought so bravely in the Civil War. It’s certainly their right to do so. Surely you would have no objection to their building a Civil War memorial a block away from the motel where Martin Luther King was assassinated? You know, the Stars and Bars. A statue of Bedford Forrest. All that good stuff. I’m sure you wouldn’t think that would be the least bit insensitive….. and I’m sure you’d be gloriously critical of anybody who said otherwise.THAT’S a more apt analogy than yours.

  6. shrinkers says:

    One problem with Jeff’s argument is that there is absolutely no connection between the people who are building the community center in Manhattan and the 9/11 terrorists.What is the connection?No winger has ever described the association.Explain it to me.The only thing they have in common is their religion.Islam did not attack the World Trade Center. al Qaeda did.In your analogy, Jeff, the “Tennessee citizens” were celebrating “their ancestors who fought so bravely in the Civil War.” These were people who intentionally defended slavery, and who revolted against the United States of America.Islam did not attack the WTC. Nor did Islam attack the United States. Nor is the community center being created to celebrate people who attacked either.You are objecting to their religion. Period.And your objection is un-American, and is a wonderful recruitment tool for the crazy people who want Moslems to hate America. Do not forget that Moslems also worked in the WTC, and died in the attack. In fact, there was a mosque in the World Trade Center at the time.This is yet another fake issue, a piece of hate propaganda created by Republicans to distract America from the destruction that the Republicans have committed in the last decade — dismantling our economy, engaging in unnecessary wars, shredding the Constitution.The enemy of America is not Islam. It is the Republican Party, and its recent Frankenstein creation, the Teapers.

  7. shiloh says:

    On Sept. 11, 2001 there were already (2) mosques inside the WTC!News media ‘worst’ for failing to report WTC mosque existedKeith Olbermann names all of news media as today’s Worst Persons in the World for failing to mention, in all the debate over the Cordoba House, that there was a mosque on the 17th floor of the World Trade Center’s second tower.take care, blessings

  8. Mainer says:

    My little remote hamlet has one Muslim family. How he ever got here is an interesting story in and of itself but he is one funny dude. At present he is a full time paramedic. Damn talented guy with a sense of fairness. One of his coworkers has a honking big family and is quite the devout Catholic and the two have it worked out so as best they can they back fill each other on major religious holidays. It took some of their coworkers several years to figure out why Ali was always giving up things like Christmas so his Catholic friend could go to every thing with his family. Too funny actually. The boy loves barbque. So if any of us know he might wander through we make sure to have some chicken or beef short ribs for his gang. Kind of a little thing maybe but he is our neighbor, it is a little town, and he fills an important role. Now if I could get my damned lawn to look as good as his I would be happy.There will always be conflicts between groups because of ignorance and fear. At some level it is both to be expected and is understandable (many are antsy about the unknown) but when any group plays on those fears to curry favor or gain position at that groups disadvantage it is reprehensible.Jeff I really wish you were right but in my life time the Republicans have become the party of perpetual boogymen. Lets us see there has been the commies (they were good for how many elections?)the gays (how many ballot initiatives did Rove get on to swing an election), anybody that believes a woman has the right to control her own body, oh criminals (lock them up throw away the key and then bitch about the high cost of prisons, clasic),latino immigrants (lets be honest here both legal and illegal have been targets here regardless of what some would have us believe oh unless you are cuban and vote republican), environmentalists ( now there is also a classic if ever there was one I do not like over the top any thing but those folks that have tried to make sure we didn’t drown, choke or gag to death on our own filth as enemies of the Republic?), any one that is tired of the death toll in our urban areas and would like to see sensible controls on weapons (got to remember boys and girls I have held a license to sell such for many years and really love the shooting sports), oh lord how many others have I forgotten this fine Sunday? The point is Jeff you want to come back with progressives hate the rich. I don’t know any that do but there are many of us that don’t want to see the rich get that way at the expense of what used to be the middle class. Oh and the belief that progressives hate religious people is a little on the weak side as well for when has it ever been used as a wedge issue with progressives? And there in is the tell tale. If it has been used as a wedge issue to curry position it is in……so in my world view to be a Republican leader today seems to require a list of boogymen.

  9. filistro says:

    Mainer, you are the archetype of the Real American. As I’ve said before, I think you are the salt of the earth. No matter how gloomy things look, you always give me hope and assurance that there are spots of light in this troubled old world.So… thanks, eh? 🙂

  10. shrinkers says:

    Fear is a good way to get us to avoid looking at the actual issues.And the main reason the Republicans want to get us to avoid looking at the real issues is that the Republicans are the ones who screwed things up.So, yes, let’s be afraid of the Mexicans and the Muslims. That way we won’t remember the Republicans threw you out of work, started 2 unnecessary wars, prevented a decade of stem cell research, allowed America’s schools and infrastructure to crumble, did nothing about health care as costs skyrocketed, refused to address rising Medicare and Social Security costs, removed regulations intended to prevent the destruction of the environment, pissed off our allies, emboldened our enemies … the list goes on.But let’s be afraid of Mexicans and Muslims. Mexican Muslims are the worst — terroristas sneaking through our boarder fence.

  11. GROG says:

    Shrinkers, it’s not just Republicans who are against building the Hamas endorsed mosque at ground zero. It’s 70% of the American public. Last time I checked, 70% of Americans are not Republicans. If it made so much sense, why are there no Democrats running this fall on a pro ground zero mosque message? Are there no Democrats who want to stand up for what they think is right?

  12. GROG says:

    And you forgot to mention above that Democrats have controlled Congress for the past 4 years and the only thing they didn’t want to heavily regulate was Barney Franks Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

  13. shrinkers says:

    @Grog – It’s neither at ground zero, nor is it a mosque.Yes, the Republicans are good at getting their hate messages across. That’s why they do it. But you know what? The Bill of Rights exists to protect even unpopular rights, not solely to protect your guns.And I’m really sick of this “Democrats controlled Congress” BS. The Republicans have been using the filibuster as a sledgehammer, using it more times in the last year than it was used in the entire 2 decades of the 50s and 60s COMBINED. The Republicans have ground government to a halt. So don’t give me that crap.And you know what else? It takes more than 18 months to fix the 8-year-long Republican mess. And if Fanny and Freddie were such a godawful problem, why didn’t the Republicans fix them when they were in charge? Answer: because Fanny and Freddie had nothing to do with the economic crisis, and are just another example of Republican misdirection.

  14. shrinkers says:

    “another example of Republican misdirection.”And note the direction of that misdirection. Another dogwhistle class warfare / racist image, isn’t it? PO’ black folk with their outrageous mortgages are the reason why the economy tanked. Puh-leeese. This is exactly the sort of scapegoating and parasitic blaming of evil “others” that this thread is all about. Thank for for demonstrating the point Mr. Universe was trying to make.

  15. shortchain says:

    Is it still bold?First, a thanks to all who set up this site. I lurked a long time at 538, both before and after it became assimilated.I do love a spirited discussion, and I’m something of a connoisseur of right-wing blather, and Bart needs little excuse to back up his BS truck and provide all the amusement one could ask.Scapegoating is, of course, the standard method for providing simple answers to vexing questions. It’s always easier to find a convenient someone to blame rather than analyze the situation and rationally assess the likely sources of the problem.For the bursting of the home equity bubble, it’s a lot easier to blame it on the people who took out those garbage mortgages rather than on the greed of the anonymous investors who, having more money than they knew what to do with, were eager to buy the derivative products which, contrary to the primary rule of investing (“higher interest” equals “more risk”) offered higher interest with supposedly zero risk.

  16. Jean says:

    GROG,re:If it made so much sense, why are there no Democrats running this fall on a pro ground zero mosque message? Are there no Democrats who want to stand up for what they think is right?Perhaps because building a Muslim American community center and mosque two blocks from the WTC site is not and never should have become a national issue. Muslim Americans have every bit as much right as any other American to practice their religion. And where any place of worship can be built is a local zoning issue. The fact that it became a national issue is nothing more than more of the usual Republican fear mongering for political gain.

  17. GROG says:

    shrinkers said:”because Fanny and Freddie had nothing to do with the economic crisis”Wow are you delusional!Jean said:”Perhaps because building a Muslim American community center and mosque two blocks from the WTC site is not and never should have become a national issue.”Obama made in a national issue. Building a mosque at ground zero is nothing more than an attempt by radical Islam to rub our noses in the deaths of thousands of American lives. It’s insensitive and disgraceful and it does nothing but set back relations between Christianity and the muslim community.Why are liberals so concerned about the rights of Muslims to build a mosque, but have never been concerned about the rape and murder of millions of Iraqi’s under the regime of Sadam Husein?

  18. filistro says:

    @GROG… “Why are liberals so concerned about the rights of Muslims to build a mosque, but have never been concerned about the rape and murder of millions of Iraqi’s under the regime of Sadam Husein?”Welll… maybe because those “rapes and murders” weren’t happening in AMERICA, which was a country literally founded on freedom of religion… (a concept that some Americans, quaintly enough, still take seriously.)

  19. shrinkers says:

    “Obama made in a national issue. “Bull. My gods, do conservatives ever get tired of their own lies? Do they have a memory longer than the last time they watched FOX?The FOX commentators and national Republican politicians were talking about it before Obama was asked by a reporter for his opinion. In face, Obama was asked for his opinion because the Republican Party and their National Propaganda Channel were making a point over it.”Building a mosque at ground zero is nothing more than an attempt by radical Islam to rub our noses in the deaths of thousands of American lives. It’s insensitive and disgraceful and it does nothing but set back relations between Christianity and the muslim community.”A) It’s not a mosque.B) It’s not at ground zero.C) Islam did not attack the World Trade Center. Stop pretending it did.D) There were two mosques in the World Trade Center. There were Muslims in the World Trade Center who died. There were Muslims among the first responders. al Qaeda attacked them as much as they attacked anything else.”Why are liberals so concerned about the rights of Muslims to build a mosque, but have never been concerned about the rape and murder of millions of Iraqi’s under the regime of Sadam Husein?”1) We are concerned about the rights of ALL American citizens. Why aren’t you?2) Who said liberals “have never been concerned about the rape and murder of millions of Iraqi’s under the regime of Sadam Husein?” Where did you hear that lie?3) Thank you again for demonstrating the point of this thread — the need that conservatives have to create enemies to fear.

  20. shrinkers says:

    Jean – Did you get my book link on that other thread yesterday?

  21. GROG says:

    “2) Who said liberals “have never been concerned about the rape and murder of millions of Iraqi’s under the regime of Sadam Husein?”Progressives, who if they could change history, would have never overthrown Sadam and would rather return to the murdering and raping regime.

  22. filistro says:

    @GROG, “liberals… so concerned about the rights of Muslims to build a mosque… have never been concerned about the rape and murder of millions of Iraqi’s under the regime of Sadam Husein?”That’s so insane it just boggles the mind. It’s like the neighbors get in an uproar and call the social worker because some guy on their street is starving his children… and he says to the social worker, “What business is it of theirs what I do with my kids? If my neighbors are so concerned about starving kids, why didn’t they doing something about all those little kids over in Somalia?”Jeez, GROG. This is a red herring as big as a house.

  23. shortchain says:

    Grog,Are you saying that rape and murder have been reduced subsequent to the invasion and occupation of Iraq?

  24. GROG says:

    @fili,shrinkers:What liberal, progressive, Democrat, has ever said, “I don’t agree with the Iraq war or the reasons we went to war, but at least Sadam isn’t raping and murdering women and children anymore”. Maybe you guys can give me a link.

  25. shiloh says:

    Red herring indeed fili as where was cheney/bush during the Darfur genocide, etc. etc.To quote someone up the page ~ “Wow grog is delusional! as well as a frickin’ idiot!Iraq was all about oil and cheney/bush settling a score bush’s daddy didn’t finish during the 1st Gulf War.btw, isn’t it fun grog and many other winger troll lemmings have arrived at Mr. U’s site so we can again make fun of their lunacy! :)apologies to frickin’ idiots …take care

  26. GROG says:

    Hey shiloh. Did you know the word “Cuyahoga” is an Indian word meaing “crooked democrat”?

  27. shiloh says:

    Grog, former corrupt/incompetent Ohio governor Robert “I should have gone to jail” Alphonso Taft, II, (1999 to 2007) was not born in Cuyahoga Falls or Cuyahoga county.take care, blessings

  28. Number Seven says:

    I guess GROG can’t remember how much the Public Cons beefed about us going into the former Yugoslavia to stop rapes and murders.Just another Public Con who wants to have it both ways and thinks the memory of others are as maliable as his.Iraq was contained much in the same way we contained the Soviet Union for decades.The Public Cons were just fine with the Kurds being killed in Iraq since they were buying the WMD’s from us.MEIN FUHRER!!! I CAN WALK!!!

  29. shiloh says:

    Criminal ConvictionOn August 17, 2005, Taft was charged with four criminal misdemeanors stemming from his failure to disclose golf outings paid for by lobbyists, as well as some undisclosed gifts. The Associated Press reported the total value of at least 52 undisclosed gifts as about US$5,800, they included: * Two undisclosed gifts including golf with coin dealer Thomas Noe, a Republican fundraiser then under investigation, and later convicted, for his handling of a $50 million investment of state money in rare coins, and diverting $2 million to personal use. Taft said of Tom Noe that ““He fooled people from one end of Ohio to the other.”See Coingate scandal. * Six undisclosed gifts including golf outings with political strategist Curt Steiner and Robert Massie, president of chemical services giant CAS, worth $700. Taft later lobbied the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services against expanding scientific directories that would compete with CAS. * Undisclosed gifts including dinner and Columbus Blue Jackets hockey tickets from Jerry Jurgeson, chief executive officer of Nationwide Insurance * book and artwork from the consulate general of the People’s Republic of China worth $100 * a photograph and framed medal from the Defense Supply Center worth $85 * a portfolio and clothing worth $119 from the Youngstown/Warren Regional Chamber of Commerce.This was the first time an Ohio governor has ever been charged with a crime while in office.>>>PollingIn the wake of convictions for the ethics violations (see criminal conviction), Taft’s approval rating bottomed out at (((((6.5 percent))))), according to a late November 2005 poll by Zogby, giving him quite possibly the lowest polled approval rating ever by a United States politician. A SurveyUSA poll that same month gave Taft a rating of 18 percent. A late-2005 article in Time named him as one of the three worst governors in the country. Ohio Republican lossesDue to term limits for the Ohio governorship, Taft was ineligible to run for a third consecutive term. According to the Washington Post, Taft was the most unpopular Governor in Ohio history.(((((6.5 percent))))) 🙂 even his grandma thought he should go to jail lol>and grog, thanx for playing ;)take care, blessings

  30. filistro says:

    @ GROG “What liberal, progressive, Democrat, has ever said, “I don’t agree with the Iraq war or the reasons we went to war, but at least Sadam isn’t raping and murdering women and children anymore”. Well, if we’re going to start applying history to our current problems… how many conservatives do you ever hear blaming Bush 1 for the fact that during the first Gulf War he encouraged teh Shia to rise up and then when they did so he refused to provide them with the promised coverage and assistance (for craven political reasons) and left them abandoned out in the desert to be slaughtered by Saddam.”Rape and murder” ensued by the thousands… because the Republicans broke their promise to the Iraqi Shiites. If Bush had just kept his word Saddam would have been stopped 10 years earlier… *and by his own people.* Funny how conservatives never mention that bit of history. Selective memory is such a strange thing…

  31. shiloh says:

    btwTaft was born in 1942 in Boston, Massachusetts, the son of U.S. Senator Robert Taft, Jr. and Blanca Duncan Noel. His grandfather was U.S. Senate Majority Leader Robert A. Taft, and his great-grandfather was U.S. President William Howard Taft. He was raised in Cincinnati, Ohio, where he attended the Cincinnati Country Day School through the ninth grade and graduated from The Taft School.>Indeed, President and Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, William Howard Taft, Alphonso’s great granddad would have been soooo proud of his great grandson, eh lol ;)ok, I could go on for days talkin’ about corrupt (((Republican))) Ohio politicians but why beat a dead horse! :)take care

  32. Jean says:

    shrinkers,Yes, I did. Thanks so much. I look forward to reading your book.

  33. GROG says:

    Hey shrinkers. The “community center” will have a mosque. Please quite repeating the lie that there is no plan to build a mosque at ground zero. And please don’t repeat the lie that it’s not at ground zero. It’s two blocks away from the WTC site. That is ground zero.

  34. GROG says:

    Are women going to be allowed to pray at the ground zero mosque, or are they going to be bansished into a corner to pray away from the men? Just wondering.You want to protect the rights of Muslims, but Muslims don’t even consider the rights of women. Where is the outcry from the far left when Muslims are stoning to death women for adultery? Your hypocrisy is stunning. But I’m only with the 70% majority, so what do I know.

  35. Jean says:

    GROG,You’d rather have strip clubs? I think that’s the existing flavor of that immediate area two blocks from the WTC site.So much for “hallowed ground”.

  36. Jean says:

    GROG,re: The “community center” will have a mosque.And the former World Trade Center had two mosques within. Your point is….?

  37. GROG says:

    My point is that shrinkers said “it’s not a mosque” and he is wrong.

  38. Jean says:

    GROG:re: Are women going to be allowed to pray at the ground zero mosque, or are they going to be bansished into a corner to pray away from the men?And Orthodox Jews do the same. In this country, that’s called freedom of religion.

  39. Jean says:

    fili,I notice Nate has some new blogs up at the NYT. Have you tried sending your innocuous ‘fans of Nate’ comment to those blogs?If not, it might be a good idea to do so – for those who may have missed the URL on the older blogs.

  40. GROG says:

    @Jean,Strippers didn’t kill 2700 people at the WTC. People like Hamas who support the Mosque and will worship there, did kill 2700 people at the WTC.

  41. filistro says:

    Jean.. As an experiment I posted this in one of the Murkowski blogs:32.filistroCanadaSeptember 19th, 201010:33 amI notice a lot of people are grumbling about the moderated comments section here at NYT. Though we may feel that Nate has belonged to *us* for the past couple of years, and really miss the free-and-easy communication we used to have with him, I think it’s important now to remember this blog is for the purpose of expressing NATE’S opinions, not ours. And the moderators are keeping it crisp, focused and professional-looking, just as they should.If you want to post pithy, thoughtful, on-topic comments about blog content, do it here. If you just want to kvetch, schmooze, argue or pontificate, come on over to the 538 fan/chat site at:http://blog.538refugees.com…where you can still do all those things in real time, just like the old days… without embarrassing Nate or causing undue grief to the moderators ;-)Recommended Recommended by 2 ReadersReport as Inappropriate… totally off topic, and it got through with no problem. You know, I think they WANT us to promote this blog. Why else would they publish this post when they reject so many others?It’s at Number 32. If all of you go and recommend it, maybe we can get it up to the top of the rec list where more people will see it?

  42. Jean says:

    Thanks, fili. Found it and recommended.

  43. GROG says:

    Back to Mr. Universe’s post. “A black man as president. Sounded great in theory but reprehensible in reality. It couldn’t be taken seriously. I mean, c’mon. A brother with a finger on the nuclear button? Shouldn’t we have some crusty old white guy in that position?”It’s only the left who brings up Obama’s race. His popularity is waning, so the only possible explanation to the left is racism. It couldn’t be the ridiculous spending spree he’s on, or Obamacare, or his stance against Arizona’s immigration law, or his failure to create jobs. Nope. It’s because he’s black. Thanks for the analysis.

  44. filistro says:

    SO GROG… are you opposed to the mosque at the PENTAGON where Muslims go every day to pray… and have ever since 9/11?Can’t you see how you’re being *used*? You’re like one of those zombie compters that’s been co-opted by a malevolent virus and (without even knowing it) is now busy pumping out somebody else’s destructive agenda, spewing it all over the place.Opposing the peacful expression of a religion shared by more than a billion people isn’t just hateful and intolerant… it’s UN-AMERICAN.And the head honchos of your GOP aren’t *really* opposed, Grog. They’re just cynically using this outrage to whip up fervor in the base. They’re using you like a bunch of chumps. In a few years, GOP dignitaries will attend functions at the new “Ground Zero Mosque” (if it will help them garner votes) and this whole shameful flap will be airily dismissed as if it never happened.As Gilda Radner used to say… “Nev-er mind…”

  45. shrinkers says:

    @GROG”Progressives, who if they could change history, would have never overthrown Sadam and would rather return to the murdering and raping regime.”It is not America’s place to invade other nations to change their rulers. Besides, that’s not why we went into Iraq. Don’t try to re-write history.

  46. filistro says:

    “It’s only the left who brings up Obama’s race. “OMG. Don’t make me bring the Freepers in here. (I will if I have to, but you’ll be sorry.)

  47. Jeff says:

    Mainer said: “Jeff I really wish you were right but in my life time the Republicans have become the party of perpetual boogymen.”========Basically, both Democrats and Republicans are parties of perpetual boogymen and evils they run against. It’s called “firing up the base,” which is something that’s called for here on an hourly basis.You have your list, I have mine. William Jennings Bryan accused Republicans of wanting to crucify workers on a “Cross of Gold.” Democrats ran against Herbert Hoover for 70 years. They ran against Republicans who said that Social Security was a Ponzi scheme. They accuse Republicans of being the party of the rich. They accuse Republicans of being racists (having just finished Clarence Thomas’ autobiography, it’s real clear who the would-be plantation owners are). If a Republican ever calls for a cost-benefit analysis of anything remotely related to “environmentalism,” they’re accused of wanting to poison the air and water. Honest disagreement over health care becomes wanting poor people to die in the streets. You say “in my world view to be a Republican leader today seems to require a list of boogymen.” In my world view to be a Democrat leader requires slavish adherence to the liberal dogma and refusal to question orthodoxy. We could have this discussion all day, but I’m willing to grant that each side has its own boogymen — and each side has its extremists. I recognize the ones on my side — who do you think are rabble-rousing demagogues on the left? Or are all liberals simon-pure altruists?

  48. shrinkers says:

    Answering a bunch of GROG all at once:——————-“What liberal, progressive, Democrat, has ever said, “I don’t agree with the Iraq war or the reasons we went to war, but at least Sadam isn’t raping and murdering women and children anymore”.”That doesn’t seem necessary, since this had nothing to do with the reason we went into Iraq. It’s clearly just another attempt to change the subject.——————-“Hey shrinkers. The “community center” will have a mosque. Please quite repeating the lie that there is no plan to build a mosque at ground zero. And please don’t repeat the lie that it’s not at ground zero. It’s two blocks away from the WTC site. That is ground zero.”It is a community center with a prayer room inside. This seems to be a fitting way to replace the 2 mosques that were destroyed at the world Trade Center. And 2 blocks away from grond zero is 2 blocks away from grond zero. How far would it have to be, in your opinion, before it is not “at” ground zero? Not that it matters. The people building the community center had no connection whatever to 9/11. so I can see no reason they shou;d build wherever they like.Hey, you know, I just realized — all the 9/11 hijackers were men, with two legs! We’d better not allow any 2-legged men anywhere near ground zero! That’s such a clear slap in the face to the victims!!!(By the way, you still haven’t said whether you think the mosque in the Pentagon should be removed. You opinion, please?)——————-“Strippers didn’t kill 2700 people at the WTC.”Neither did the poeple building this community center. What’s your point? I still fail to see the connection.——————-“It’s only the left who brings up Obama’s race. “Right you are, It’s the left who keeps insisting he was born in Kenya.——————-

  49. shrinkers says:

    filistro — I also found your post on NYT and recommended. Well done.

  50. filistro says:

    @Jeff.. “Basically, both Democrats and Republicans are parties of perpetual boogymen and evils they run against”Jeff, please name a specific racial, religious or ethnic group that has been demonized by Democrats in the modern era.NOTE.. “CEO’s” don’t count as an ethnic group… though they do probably represent a religion to some people 🙂

  51. GROG says:

    Okay, okay. Myself and the other 70% of Americans who believe building a mosque at ground zero is insensitive are a bunch of hate mongering, right wing extremists. And I do believe that the left should be very vocal in their support of the mosque and I do not, I repeat, I DO NOT, believe it will show how out of touch the far left is with the American people.I think more Democrats should run this fall on pro-mosque, pro Obamacare, pro illegal immigrant, pro deficits, pro debt, and pro spending money that we have don’t like Paris Hilton with a credit card platform.Funny though that most Democrats are running from these issues and Obama like they’re the plague.

  52. GROG says:

    @fili,”Jeff, please name a specific racial, religious or ethnic group that has been demonized by Democrats in the modern era.”White. Christian. And southern if that’s an etnic group.

  53. Mainer says:

    Jeff, I could get very cross with you. How feaking old do you think I am…..I said in my life time….. Maybe I should have said since I have been involved with politics which was 1962 and as a teenaged Republican, now I bet that one is a surprise.

  54. filistro says:

    “White. Christian. And southern if that’s an etnic group.”Yeah… that’s why Bill Clinton never stood a chance within the Democratic Party.

  55. Jean says:

    GROG,re: Myself and the other 70% of Americans who believe building a mosque at ground zero is insensitive are a bunch of hate mongering, right wing extremists. Actually, hasn’t that percentage decreased – since the media has moved on to the car wreck that is “Christine O’Donnell”?

  56. filistro says:

    Speaking of Christine O’Donnell… (well, tangentially at least… because sooner or later ALL roads lead to Christine ;-)Here’s a grammar question (mostly for shrinkers, who really likes this sort of thing 🙂 inspired by a speech from Christine that I heard on one of the Sunday shows today.Which is grammatcially correct?”This country belongs to we, the people” or “This country belongs to us, the people” ???It’s been nagging me all day.(Where’s Tim when we need him?)

  57. GROG says:

    No, I don’t think the mosque at the Pentagon should be removed. That has nothing do with building at mosque at ground zero which is insensitive, creates unneeded provacation, and does harm to relations between Muslim and non Mulsim Americans.

  58. shiloh says:

    @grogOkay, okay. Myself and the other 70%~~~~~~~~~~When Truman desegregated the military in 1948, a survey in 1947 found only (((8%))) of officer and enlisted men were in favor of whites and African/Americans co-existing in the military.and yetand yetand yetPresident Truman still desegregated the military because it was the right thing to do.Basically, there’s the right thing to do, the wrong thing to do and opinion polls …When you find yourself in the majority, it’s time to pause and reflect! ~ Mark Twainiethe majority is not always right as fear er conservative boogeymen plays a major factor in current opinion polls, eh.be afraid, be very afraid!>@grog aka disingenuous foolWhite. Christian. And southern if that’s an etnic group.~~~~~~~~~~So Dems are demonizing Caucasians as a whole …and Christians as a whole as a religious entity …”southern” lol grog you truly are delusional!>>>Please provide source material verifying/certifying your idiotic, deflecting generalities!or just STFU or continue to make a fool of yourself … your choice ;)>btw, Jeff deflecting to (((100 years))) ago re: boogeymen was good for a mild laugh.William Jennings Bryan and Clarence Thomas lol as Thomas would not have become a SC Justice w/out Dem votes!!!Jeff, your archaic deflections are getting more and more inane as you should quit while your behind.Just sayin’take care, blessings

  59. shiloh says:

    btw, thanx 🙂 to shrinkers for fixing the italic and bold problem having tried an failed my own self …carry on

  60. shrinkers says:

    “This country belongs to us, the people” is more grammatically correct. Unless you are speaking of “We the People” as the name of a collective entity — that is, if you treat the phrase “We the People” as a name or title. Then it would be like saying “This county belongs to Fred.”But if you mean to say “This country belongs to us,” you would not say, “This country belongs to we.” If you want to clarify who “we” are, adding “the people” does not change that the country grammatically belongs to “us.”Did that make sense?

  61. dr_funguy says:

    How far away would it have to be before its not at ground zero? It’s already two blocks away (farther than the Mosques at the Pentagon.

  62. shrinkers says:

    “No, I don’t think the mosque at the Pentagon should be removed. That has nothing do with building at mosque at ground zero which is insensitive, creates unneeded provacation, and does harm to relations between Muslim and non Mulsim Americans.”Actually, you’re precisely wrong. Opposing the community center is insensitive, creates unneeded provocation, and does harm to relations between Muslim and non Muslim Americans.

  63. filistro says:

    shrinkers, I agree.I think wingers in particular like to use “we the people” as an immutable entity, capable of being either subjective or objective case.. just because it has that cool tricorne-hat- patriot-with-a-musket vibe.But it sounded wrong to me the way O’Donnell said it… and the phrase grated on my ear.

  64. shrinkers says:

    GROG, you still haven’t explained the connection between the new community center and the events of 9/11. Please tell why you think there is some connection there. Why is it “insensitive”? What is wrong with having a religious-oriented center that serves the community?

  65. shrinkers says:

    “We the people” can certainly have a rhetorical flourish — and I have used it that way myself more than once. I am most definitely not willing to concede the idea of “patriotism” to those mindless mouthbreathers with tea bags hanging from their clothes — who, more than likely, don’t even know what the original Boston Tea Party was about.

  66. filistro says:

    Dr funguy… I understand the new rule as to proper distance is “beyond the fall of the ash cloud.”Which is just getting so totally ludicrous… so-o-o-o-o far out into the crazy… that when I first heard it, I thought it was something from “The Onion.”

  67. dr_funguy says:

    Now Fil, don’t go putting words in Grog’s mouth. It’s much more entertaining when he puts his foot there his own self.

  68. GROG says:

    shrinkers said:”GROG, you still haven’t explained the connection between the new community center and the events of 9/11. Please tell why you think there is some connection there. Why is it “insensitive”?”2700 Americans were killed in the name of Islam. The people wanting to build the mosque refuse to even acknowledge that terrorist organizations like Hamas are terrorist organizations. This whole thread and commentary is a fabulous illustration of just how far out of touch the left is with the American people.

  69. shrinkers says:

    “2700 Americans were killed in the name of Islam.”And abortion clinic doctors have been murdered in the name of Christianity. Should we view all Christians as murderers, and as being equally guilty?A bunch of nutbags misused the name of a religion as an excuse for their crimes. That does not reflect at all on the religion itself, nor on other followers of the religion.Are you suggesting that the people connected to the community center had some connection to the people who committed this horrible crime? You have still not demonstrated any association between them whatever.Try again.

  70. filistro says:

    The caveman is doing such a gallant job of defending the winger craziness all by himself. I’m almost tempted to change sides for a while, just to give him a hand… Nah, maybe not… 🙂 Wingers, where are you? Come and HELP this poor guy. He’s like… totally outnumbered and unmatched. Where’s your team spirit? Poor old GROG.

  71. GROG says:

    Fili, you and shrinkers are doing such an outstanding job of showing how far removed the far left is from main stream America. I’m enjoying this immensely. Like I said above, I encourage all Democrats to run on a pro mosque at ground zero, pro illegal immigrant, pro huge deficits, pro huge debt, pro spending money like Paris Hilton with a credit card platform. And you guys think the tea partiers are out of touch? Haha.

  72. shiloh says:

    @filiWingers, where are you? Come and HELP this poor guy. He’s like… totally outnumbered and unmatched. Where’s your team spirit?Poor old GROG.~~~~~~~~~~It’s always best to avoid those who cannot help themselves ;)Just sayin’Funny how this is just like Nate’s old blog ie wingers get overwhelmed w/progressive logic and acuity and then disappear …except grog 🙂A grog er man’s got to know his limitationstake care, blessings

  73. shrinkers says:

    GROG I notice that you did not respond to my request.What is the relationship between the people who are building the community center, and the events of 9/11? Can you describe any relationship between them whatever?

  74. filistro says:

    @GROG.. “And you guys think the tea partiers are out of touch? Haha.”Well, it was your guys who demonized and attacked Iraq even though they had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. After all that’s happened to country, one would think you would have learned something from that horrible blunder. But no… now you’re busy demonizing and attacking the community mosque people, even though THEY had nothing to do with 9/11, either.What a foolish way to behave.It’s like you leave your office and go out for lunch, and a stray dog bites you… so when you get home you kick the neighbor’s dog REALLY HARD because… a dog’s a dog, right? Who cares if the dog that actually bit you is miles away.Like I said… a nasty, ridiculous way to behave. And another thing.. sure, you may have 70% of the country on your side right now… but you had that many on your side when you went into Iraq, too. Where are they now? They wound up hating that decision (the one they used to support) so much that you lost an election over it. Remember?So maybe wingers should be a bit more careful with this one. But… they won’t. Because if they’re wingers, kicking dogs and demonizing innocent people is just what they do. It’s an election strategy.

  75. shrinkers says:

    How funny. People who support the Constitution and the idea of Liberty to such an extent that they are willing to bring guns to a presidential rally — these same people oppose a religious community center in the midst of lower Manhattan.They support freedom of speech, so long as they are the ones speaking. They support freedom of religion, if it is their religion. They support the right to assemble, so long as they are the ones assembling. Hypocritical much?GROG has done a marvelous job of illustrating the point of this thread — that wingers need an “other”, they need to engage in divisive and jingoistic political games. And the followers of this cult of hate are easily taken in by it.

  76. shrinkers says:

    It’s like you leave your office and go out for lunch, and a stray dog bites you… so when you get home you kick the neighbor’s dog REALLY HARD because… a dog’s a dog, right? Who cares if the dog that actually bit you is miles away.And then, the next time they see the neighbor’s dog… well.. it remembers that you kicked him. And now it barks and growls because you kicked it yesterday, and maybe it bites you. And you think, “See? I was right! That dog is a menace!!”And another thing.. sure, you may have 70% of the country on your side right now… but you had that many on your side when you went into Iraq, too.Wingers think that whether a position is right is dependent upon how many people they have been able to trick into believing it.Unless they’re in the minority (as they were in November 2008), then they’re standing on principle.Argue the merits of your position, GROG. That is what makes something right or wrong. Start by showing some relationship between the community Center and 9/11. I dare you. Show the relationship.

  77. Jeff says:

    @filistro”Jeff, please name a specific racial, religious or ethnic group that has been demonized by Democrats in the modern era.”For starters, Christians, particularly fundamentalists. The Great One had some wonderful comments about the bitter people who cling to their God and their guns. There is an increasingly powerful anti-Semitic strain in the Democratic party (which is a shame, since the Country Club Republicans finally moved beyond that).I will grant you that Democrats don’t demonize ethnic groups, and in fact, put ANY criticism of ethnic/cultural characteristics as out of bounds. I disagree with this. I’m sorry, but the black ghetto culture is something that should be criticized, not applauded, and it’s not racism to say so.Moral relativism is just as bad as racism. A bit more criticism might be constructive.On a slightly different slant, but one which illustrates my point — Harvard President Larry Summers was forced to resign when he said there COULD be innate differences between genders. He didn’t say he believed it, just that it was a possibility.Believing there are no differences between groups is just as bad as believing one group is intrinsicly better than another. Both fly in the face of the evidence and basic common sense. Neither belief is going to lead to intelligent decisions.

  78. shiloh says:

    @Jeff the rigteous one as opposed to The Great Onebtw, you wouldn’t be trying to demonize America’s 1st African/American president w/your disingenuous sarcasm, eh!>Christianspowerful anti-Semitic strain2008 election exit polls:Catholic vote: Obama 54% / McCain 45%Jewish vote: Obama ~ 78% / McCain 21%Protestant vote: Obama 45% / McCain 54%It is interesting after Obama’s bitter quote, which btw, first appeared in that “conservative blog” The Huffington Post had such a massive effect 45% of Protestants still voted for Obama!hmm, maybe Obama was telling the truth re: clinging to their god and guns.Again Jeff, you seem fixated w/racism er conservative racism!take care, blessings

  79. Justsayin says:

    I’m glad I found you. I have been a faithful 538er for over two years. I still tune into Nate’s blog everyday, but the NYtimes comment section just isn’t the same. This is a great alternative. Keep the debate going.

  80. shrinkers says:

    Welcome Justsayin! And join in any time. The water’s great!

  81. Mr Universe says:

    “It’s only the left who brings up Obama’s race. His popularity is waning, so the only possible explanation to the left is racism. It couldn’t be the ridiculous spending spree he’s on, or Obamacare, or his stance against Arizona’s immigration law, or his failure to create jobs. Nope. It’s because he’s black. Thanks for the analysis.”Yes, yes. I have to watch using irony. The right is so lost on it. But in all seriousness, it’s only the right who invoke racism. I mean, really.

  82. Jean says:

    shrinkers,re: Argue the merits of your position, GROG. That is what makes something right or wrong. Start by showing some relationship between the community Center and 9/11. I dare you. Show the relationship.GROG won’t be able to do so. Any attempt to claim a relationship between the community center and 9/11 is as disingenuous as the wingers attempt to fan the flames that there is a relationship between the Florida preacher burning the Koran and the Muslim community center two blocks from the WTC site.It’s simply just that the N word has been replaced by the M word. Classic Lee Atwater dog-whistle style politics.

  83. shrinkers says:

    Jean”GROG won’t be able to do so.”Of course, that’s my point 🙂 The only relationship that exists is that they’re both Muslim. Which means GROG is asking us to tar everyone of the same religion, to condemn an entire religion, because the insane acts of a few. Yet he is unwilling to do this with other religions, even though insane and terrorist acts have most certainly been committed in the name of, say, Christianity.I would like to point out that a lot of the right wing politicians who are cynically using this community center as a talking point were praising this same center only a few months ago. They’ve changed their minds about it, now that they’ve realized they can use it as a distraction and a jingoistic fear-creator.

  84. Jeff says:

    Shiloh–You doubt there is liberal anti-semitism?Google the term and see what comes up.Here’s a prime example, from Slate,that well-known right-wing outfit:”After years of rising concern about left-wing anti-Semitism, the New York Times reported this week about a study for the American Jewish Committee. Written by professor Alvin Rosenfeld of Indiana University, the study describes the spread of a virulent anti-Zionism in many quarters on the left that has helped legitimate anti-Semitism. http://www.slate.com/id/2158962/I do understand that Jews, in the immortal phrase “earn like Episcopalians and vote like Puerto Ricans” but that’s not probative of the fact that anti-Semitism is increasingly becoming a liberal problem. If you noticed, I also said that it used to be a conservative problem. That’s changed, especially among evangelical Christians.Also concerning racism — look at the writings of conservative American blacks, who uniformly give example after example of the special virulence of the attacks against them because they dare to stray off the “liberal plantation,” especially from white liberals. I think that every liberal should read the Clarence Thomas autobiography. There’s actual substance there that might give you some idea of what I’m talking about.

  85. shiloh says:

    Jeff, disregarding the nonsense in your post, as mentioned ad nauseam at Nate’s old blog, racism comes in all shapes and sizes ie north, south, east, west, Rep, Dem, Ind, Libertarian, Green, Black, White, Rich, Poor etc. etc.but, but, but againOver the past (40+) years ailes/safire/atwater/turdblossom have made a cottage industry out of fear/prejudice/hate/division/misinformation re: their scorched earth presidential campaigns trying to win at all cost strategy ~ totally dividing the nation creating the political atmosphere we have today.And of course LBJ signed the ’64/’65 Civil Rights Acts thereby giving the Old South to the Reps, for several generations, who are still fighting The Civil War!>btw, wasn’t Haley Barbour a hoot describing how Mississippi’s school’s were desegregated when he attended them in the ’60s lolHaley Barbour’s delightful view of history 😉Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could all choose what to remember?Why do Haley Barbour and his black classmate remember Ole Miss differently?Factchecking Barbour’s version of historyHaley Barbour is a lying bitch>but on the bright side 😉 if Barbour is the Rep nominee for president in 2012 he has SC, MS, AL, LA, OK in the bag! 🙂After Shiloh er Pittsburg Landing, the South never smiled!take care, blessings

  86. Jeff says:

    ShilohSometimes it’s hard to know where to begin with the corrections… but let’s take an easy one first. Haley Barbour may be a lying bastard or a lying SOB, but the term “bitch” generally refers to a female. Or perhaps you think he’s transgender?It’s your opinion that racism is almost exclusively a conservative white phenom (certainly making the Rev. Wright pale). Fine. It’s rather difficult to argue with somebody whose opinions (and skull) are cast in concrete. But let me tell you about South Carolina. You know, the home of Strom Thurmond. Birthplace of the Confederacy, and so on. One of the most conservative southern states around.I was transferred to Greenville, SC (Jim DeMint country) from Boston back in the late 70’s. Having never lived south of Philadelphia in my life, I was prepared for bubba-ville and racial oppression. Amazingly enough, SC was integrated. White kids went to school with black kids. The long-term and beloved mayor of the town was Jewish. He said the only problem he had as a Jew was that there were so few in town he had trouble getting a minyan for services.I was surprised by all of this, especially since Boston was having a hate-fest over integration. Funny thing — the good, reliable liberal voters in South Boston were taking time off from voting for Teddy Kennedy, so that they could throw rocks at little black kids. Fast forward to this summer, at the other end of the state. Republican primary in Charleston. District is 75% Republican. Strom Thurmond is running for Congress against a black guy. Black guy wins the primary.Just another example of how white, conservative Republicans are motivated by hatred of black folks.—-Kindly do not claim that the South votes Republican because they are racists, and that the whites in the North who vote for liberal democrats are pure of heart. Ain’t so, bud. I’ve seen it with my own two eyes.Hatred is a terrible thing that will rot your soul. You display terrible, bitter hatred for conservatives. You refuse to acknowledge that there are good and bad people on all sides. There are liberal racists and haters, and conservatives too. I don’t understand why this is such a tough concept….

  87. shiloh says:

    @bitter Jeff who has his panties in a bunch!Please provide a source reference where I said anything resembling: Kindly do not claim that the South votes Republican because they are racists, and that the whites in the North who vote for liberal democrats are pure of heart. Ain’t so, bud. I’ve seen it with my own two eyes.As this would be totally ignorant knowing there have been Democratic governor’s in SC, GA, MS, AL, LA, some quite recently as AK currently has a Dem governor.Jeff re: Jeff, disregarding the nonsense in your post, as mentioned ad nauseam at Nate’s old blog, racism comes in all shapes and sizes ie north, south, east, west, Rep, Dem, Ind, Libertarian, Green, Black, White, Rich, Poor etc. etc. what is so difficult to grasp as like Bart, you have a reading comprehension deficit!>And a whole post on SC irrelevant anecdotes lol SC, a state w/high unemployment and Rep Sanford as governor 😉 as they appear ready to elect another Rep ~ great example.And no, I didn’t write the (4) articles about born liar Haley Barbour so if you have a problem w/a sarcastic title of one of the articles please take it up w/the author, not me. btw, Jeff you are the winger sarcasm king when it comes to Obama and the Dems so it shouldn’t be a big deal, but you start your post out w/that deflection as per usual.>Again bitter Jeff, you confuse hatred w/realistic sarcasm as it takes a lot of effort to hate someone which you provide on a daily basis re: Barack Hussein Obama, the fairly/legally elected 44th President of the United States of America! :)>And I beseech you, please try to make some sense in your next reply and not be overwhelmed by your bitterness/hatred/prejudices as they are now consuming you!Take a few days off and try to calm your uncontrollable outrage about being in the minority …take care, blessings

  88. shiloh says:

    @deflecting Jefftypo: some quite recently as Arkansas currently has a Dem governor.As I don’t want to give Jeff an opportunity to deflect to my typo, since he made bitch/bastard a major bone of irrelevant contention!ciao

  89. Jeff says:

    Shiloh:You said “Please provide a source reference where I said anything resembling: Kindly do not claim that the South votes Republican because they are racists.”Actually, those were my words you quoted, but in the context you cited them, I took you to mean you are asking me where you said the South votes R because they’re racists. If I misunderstand, mea culpa. However, the answer I would give is your saying: “And of course LBJ signed the ’64/’65 Civil Rights Acts thereby giving the Old South to the Reps, for several generations, who are still fighting The Civil War!”Again, apologies if I misunderstand what you’re trying to say. However, “several generations” since 1964 brings us to the current day. If the 1964 civil rights act is still what makes the South conservative, then I would have to attribute that to racism. ========You went on to say: “Again bitter Jeff, you confuse hatred w/realistic sarcasm as it takes a lot of effort to hate someone which you provide on a daily basis re: Barack Hussein Obama, the fairly/legally elected 44th President of the United States of America!”Since you delight in asking people to “prove it,” perhaps you can find where I said that Obama is anything but legally & fairly elected. To save you time, I’ll help: “Never.” Nor do I care where he was born.In fact, I don’t “hate” Obama. I think he’s terribly over his head, I think he’s made some terrible decisions, and I think he would have profited greatly by having some real-world business experience, instead of imbibing the theories in the faculty lounge. I don’t hate Obama, I hate his policies, and I’ve been horribly disappointed that he has so miserably failed in his campaign promise to be post-partisan. You also say: “what is so difficult to grasp as like Bart, you have a reading comprehension deficit!”Perhaps I do have a “reading comprehension deficit” that has suddenly manifested itself. It’s quite possible, although IMHO, not very probable. Or, if I may humbly offer a different possibility, perhaps I have difficulty with a limited number of writers…..Both my parents were teachers for a while, and they often used the phrase “if the pupil didn’t learn, the teacher didn’t teach.”Again, and only as a possibility to consider, perhaps instead of Bart and I manifesting reading comprehension difficulties, one might also have the hypothesis that your writing style might have made some small degree of contribution to the communications problem. Just considering the possibilities…..Be mellow….

  90. shiloh says:

    Jeff lol as we continue to go around in circles as always. Assuming you’re the same Jeff at the old site where you would argue over religion and lived in Canada at some point. But I do remember you sayin’ you lived in Philadelphia also.And if you’re the same Jeff we also agreed to not reply to each other once upon a time. And pretty sure you reneged on that pledge. ;)And then there was that one thread not too long ago when you told everyone to just ignore me lol. Again the irony of telling someone to ignore me as you were replying to me your own self …I digress.>As to your post: Again, please reread as I never “accused” you of sayin’ Obama wasn’t freely/fairly elected ~ was just stating a fact and will admit I do delight er have fun w/wingers like you and Bart who are so rigid in their ideology and obsessed w/Obama.And will also admit that I don’t think you actually hate Obama, only that he really, really bugs the hell out of peeps like you, Bart, PK, Charles, grog, etc.As mentioned and is obvious I also use hyperbole/sarcasm for effect, but when you’re in the majority it’s different than someone using disingenuous sarcasm in the minority as almost always said person appears to be a sore loser and whining.It’s just the nature of the beast re: winners and losers.btw, if you’re not the same Jeff I’m talkin’ about disregard most of my post lol.Anyway, continuing to ramble was thinkin’ earlier of a subject which was discussed a couple times at the old site: Why does a person become a liberal and why does someone become a conservative in that again, they come in all shapes and sizes: old, young, rich, poor, educated, uneducated, and yes Virginia, even a few African/Americans are Reps ~ Gasp! ;)>And it’s funny when I’m debating someone who takes a lighter tone, I too take a lighter tone. Again the nature of the beast.>As I’ve mentioned before, having grown up in the ’60s, never thought an African/American would be elected President in my lifetime, so everything else is just gravy and the fact Obama drives Reps crazy is icing on the cake. And nothing he does will ever be right according to fixednoise, winger talk radio, conservative bloggers on the net, etc.>btw, what made me an independent liberal?hmmWas against the Vietnam War. Didn’t like Nixon. Was raised Catholic. Blame the Nuns lol. My mom and dad were not political. Politics was never discussed. My dad didn’t vote until the ’92 election. And have also mentioned my years in the USN had no effect on my politics, even though when you join the military, one becomes very nationalistic, but again I’m an Independent liberal, never registered as a Dem.Didn’t vote for Reagan, but he was my C-in-C from 1981 to 1989. No biggie as I didn’t start discussing politics until 2003 when at a Reality TV site they had a Current Affairs forum where many of the posters really didn’t like each other and thought … hmm, I should fit right in! :)3000 characters …

  91. Jeff says:

    @shilohYou said: “Jeff lol as we continue to go around in circles as always. Assuming you’re the same Jeff at the old site where you would argue over religion and lived in Canada at some point. But I do remember you sayin’ you lived in Philadelphia also.”===========Nope, at the old site I was “Jeffrey.” I’ve visited Canada a few times, but never lived there. The closest I’ve ever lived to Philadelphia is Princeton, NJ. And I was only on the old site for about 5 weeks before the big change began. Reset button?As for what made me a conservative — I’m often asked that question and I usually answer by saying three things:– Native intelligence– Good parents– A good education.

  92. Jeff says:

    And some additional reasons for being a conservative:My first job out of college was working in a research arm of AT&T. My boss had PhD’s in psychology and statistics. I saw incredible inefficiency — everybody worked hard, on meaningless work. AT&T gave great service, but I learned after the breakup how much better it could have been.I then spent 10 years working for a division of another Fortune 50 company. I saw — firsthand — the unions destroy a business. I dealt with a union that was mob-influenced and had my life threatened because I wouldn’t knuckle under to illegitimate demands, and saw politicians ignore the problem because the unions in the State are the biggest political force.And later I also spent a couple of years negotiating contracts with unions and developed good relationships with many union officials. I learned that not all unions are crooked, and went on to serve on a union benefit trust board.I spent the last 15 years as a CFO in a medium-sized non-profit, and saw (inane) regulations added every year that cost a lot of time and money, and did nothing to help people. I got tired of knowing that every day I was probably breaking one or another law or regulation — unknowingly, because the sheer bulk and complexity of regulations make it impossible to comply no matter how good your intentions. I dealt with the termination of a totally worthless employee (threatened children, refused to meet with his supervisor, had undisclosed criminal convictions). I then went through a “civil rights” lawsuit that the insurance company settled for three years pay, because the costs — and risks — of litigation are so high. I’m an elected official in my town, and I see first-hand the exorbitant salaries and even more exorbitant benefits government workers make, yet can do nothing about it because the market sets the price (and because the unions are by far the largest political contributors in the state, they get to “buy” the politicians who sign the contracts that set the market prices). I’m a conservative because I don’t like big government, or the big organizations that use big government as a way to hamstring competition. I resent a nanny-state that wants to tell me what to do the minute I leave my bedroom (I’m also not a fan of those conservatives who want to tell me what I can and can’t do in my bedroom, but they’re easier to take, because I can always lower my shades).I’ve learned that “the experts” are usually wrong, because they’ve learned how it used to work, and the world is changing too fast for anybody to keep up, and know that free markets make better choices than experts.I’ve learned that the “common man (and women)” are the best people in the world to decide how to spend their money and live their lives, and that some will make good choices and some bad, but that in the end it’s THEIR choice, and that we’re all richer in what counts when we have more choices in life.

  93. shiloh says:

    Jeffrey, thanx for clearing that up as indeed easily remember you at the old blog as you were more of a john birch winger than the other Jeff, if possible.And it will get confusing as there are now (2) Jeff’s posting here, but will probably 😉 be ignoring you both, so no biggie!btw, you are the typical self-centered winger as you start many of your sentences …I sawI thenI sawI dealtI learnedI spentI gotI dealtI thenI’m an elected officialI’m a conservativeI resent a nanny-stateI’ve learnedI’ve learnedwith I … but, but, but on the bright side you only speak for yourself as you live in a bubble and never generalize.Oh wait …btw, the other Jeff also threatened to er said he was leaving 538 never to return, much like 538’s #1 raving conservative lunatic Mule Rider did 10/20 times. lolNever say never as of course Jeff did return, and why is it always conservative wingers who childishly threaten to leave liberal blogs! 🙂 like (((we))) would even care if they did …Rhetorical question.I digress ;)take care, blessings

  94. Jeff says:

    @shiloh,Thank you for your latest flame — it’s quite illuminating. You asked why a person would become a liberal or a conservative. This person answered why *I* became a conservative. Personal experience. Yes, this person’s answer used the vertical pronoun. Pretty hard to avoid it when answering the question you posed — if you choose to write in standard English when describing personal experiences. This person said before that your writing style leads to confusion. One might begin to think it’s semi-deliberate and an attempt to “bait” others, especially those with whom you disagree. Kinda trollish. Kinda childish. Kinda misses the point of trying to have a dialog. But very reminiscent of third graders, each trying to shout down the other. “He did” “Did Not” “Did Too.”There are many people on here who wish to discuss the issues. I disagree with most of them, most of the time. And I respect and value differences of opinion. Learning what others believe and why they believe it is part of being a mature adult.My suspicion is that you really don’t have any real interest in the ideas and the learning experience, and instead get your jollies out of *trying* to annoy, anger, and drive away anybody whose opinion differs with yours. I don’t know if it’s a weird dominance game, or if you’ve only been successful in winning arguments by making yourself so annoying that the other person walks away. It’s truly sad that when you “win,” it’s really a mark of having lost.It’s a shame, because beneath all the bluster I suspect that there MIGHT be a kernel of sense — or at least a world view that might be of interest. Too bad….

  95. shiloh says:

    @JeffreyOh the irony of you talkin’ about baiting and flaming!take care

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